# Our war was just. Just approved, at least. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906 "2003-05-22T22:00:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/1 "2003-05-22T22:00:20Z")
[http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15978](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15978) So, it looks like Gulf II is accepted and done with, the french and germans and russians have rolled over, so the world may go back to normal… I am not proud. Or content. I still feel that Bush was wrong to choose this war. Unless, of course, the Security Council knows something we don’t. Which is always a possibility. Still, having chosen, he waited until the likely last moment to start it… I do not deny that. Nor can I fault most of the events that occured during it, it was well done. But I still believe that it was the least important issue facing him in the world today. And I still hope, having done this, we use it properly, to build a shining new future for Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/2 "2003-05-22T22:16:45Z")
Maybe I’m just oblivious, but what, precisely, is the debate here? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/3 "2003-05-22T23:10:16Z")
I’m happy to see France, Germany, and Russia recognize that there is no point in ignoring reality. No point to punish Iraqis for their (Europe’s) disagreement with the US. And, yeah, what is the debate? I don’t see that this indicates any recognition that the war was justified. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/4 "2003-05-23T00:48:19Z")
Personally, I would have rather had them wait until it was clear that there are no WMD in Iraq. Make us sweat a little. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/5 "2003-05-23T00:55:33Z")
TP: Why punish the Iraqis? The sanctions were against the regime of S.H., which no longer exists as an institution. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/6 "2003-05-23T01:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > The U.S. was forced to come back to the U.N. because it could not legally sell Iraq’s oil without a Security Council resolution and because even alleged coalition countries wanted a U.N. resolution before they would join in the occupation. The U.S. had to admit that it was, in fact, an Occupying power. > > But overall, once the threat to their debt repayments and contracts was lifted along with the sanctions, the other council members decided that, despite the powerful leverage the sanctions and oil sales would give them, they had no dog in this fight, so they declined to do serious battle. Seems to me like France & Co. rejected the war before the war and now are accepting the fait accompli. Unlike the USA who 44 years later still holds a grudge with Cuba. And, speaking of grudges: > [@](#): > > However, on a personal grudge level, the Pentagon has never forgiven former chief weapons inspector Hans Blix for being right about the prohibited weapons, or lack thereof, in Iraq, and so it seems that they will not consider allowing UNMOVIC back in until after Blix’s retirement in June. The message is not only that the Pentagon is petty, but also that it is powerful: certainly powerful enough to override their British allies, not to mention powerful enough to ignore common sense. The article then mentions the Western Sahara. Some time ago I started a thread on that topic saying it was a shameful sellout by Spain, France and the USA. I still think so and the article agrees > [@](#): > > And why am I picking upon the French? Because this week is the 30th anniversary of the establishment of Polisario and the beginning of the Western Saharan struggle for the rights that the U.N. says the people are entitled to. Delayed a few days by the Iraq resolution, this week Kofi Annan will present the latest version of James Baker’s plan for the region. Preliminary whispers suggest that it will be a warmed-over version of the old one, five years of alleged autonomy followed by a referendum in which all the Moroccan settlers will be entitled to vote. > > The Moroccans are supposed to have objected because the plan includes some tougher monitoring of their behavior under autonomy. However, from previous experience, we can predict that the French, the United States, and the little poodle U.K. trotting behind them, will be as one in their determination to sell the Sahrawis down the river. Back to business as usual. They’re only Arabs ---
**Author:** ![98467](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/9de053/32.png) [@98467](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/98467)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/7 "2003-05-23T01:09:12Z")
Personaly, I think the war on Iraq was a cover-up for something bigger. I have proof, too. First of all, North Korea has a hostility with us (not that Saddam doesn’t), they are MUCH more powerful, and are even suggested of having weapons that AREN’T ALLOWED…More than Hussein would, anyway. And think about this as you pick your nose or whatever you do when you’re bored: Iraq is whre we get practilly almost every drop of oil from. Petroleum is also the most used energy source in the US. If Bush was so exited to get rid of Saddam and Iraq, why not North Korea instead? Any morons who have not read all of my letter, read the paragraph on N Korea. And come on, don’t tell me NORTH KOREA, at the most, half the size of Texas, can beat one of the most powerful nations in the world? Either Bush is oil hungry and using the war as an exuse, or he is too ignorant to the outside world. That is all the griping and complaining I will do-for now- 😃 ---
**Author:** ![98467](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/9de053/32.png) [@98467](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/98467)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/8 "2003-05-23T01:10:53Z")
I’m so stupid. In the last paragraph of the above message, it should say “practically”-not “practilly”. Sorry! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/9 "2003-05-23T01:49:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 98467 \* > \*\*Iraq is whre we get practilly almost every drop of oil from. Petroleum is also the most used energy source in the US. \*\* Do you have a citable source for this assertion? I’ve been under the impression that almost all of the petro products consumed in the US comes from somehwere \*other[i/] than Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/10 "2003-05-23T01:57:27Z")
Well, I have to agree with most of what 98467 said in his second post. As for the OP, I fully agree that what the United States needs to do now is to lead an international effort into rebuilding a better Iraq. If ten years down the road, Iraq is as well off as Germany or Japan were in 1955, no one will question the American motives for invading. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Wrong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mr.Wrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Wrong)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/11 "2003-05-23T02:00:13Z")
> [@](#): > > _Posted by 98467_: > And think about this as you pick your nose or whatever you do when you’re bored: Iraq is whre we get practilly almost every drop of oil from. Yes. Oh except for Mexico. And Canada, but that’s it. No, wait…Venezuela, and Saudi Arabia. Hey, then there’s Alaska, Texas, the Gulf of Mexico…But, then pracically every other drop… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Wrong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mr.Wrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Wrong)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/12 "2003-05-23T02:03:44Z")
Oh, and welcome to the SDMB, **98467** , you’ll get it eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Wrong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mr.Wrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Wrong)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/13 "2003-05-23T02:10:14Z")
By the way, [here](http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw246.shtml) is a link for US oil imports by country. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/14 "2003-05-23T02:16:00Z")
Obviousl;y the USA has not been getting a lot of oil from Iraq in the last ten years but that does not mean the USA has no interest in Iraqi oil. Securing a guaranteed source of cheap oil would be very desirable, especially since it looks like Saudi Arabia might become unstable and unreliable. I have no doubt that the USA went to Iraq looking for what it may well soon lose in Saudi: oil and military bases. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/15 "2003-05-23T02:25:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\* I have no doubt that the USA went to Iraq looking for what it may well soon lose in Saudi: oil and military bases. \*\* I think you are wrong. I have no doubt that Bush went to war there because he needed to show that he was doing something. Anything. Because the economy is biting him in the butt. Terrorism is biting him in the butt. And unrest across the country in general. Also he had to keep the money men happy and as it looks like Haliburton is going to get rich, he at least covered that debt he owed. It’s all about oil? Nah, I have no doubt that it is not about oil. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/16 "2003-05-23T02:56:35Z")
Why not? I didn’t think so either until I saw how swiftly the US Govt. has moved to sweep the WMD issue under the carpet. It’s like they’re trying to burn their strawman and sweep the ashes under the rug as quickly as possible before the people call their bullshit. Besides, the justification for the French, German and Russian actions in delaying the war was always “That they were just protecting their oil interests.” If the French and the Germans can gear their entire foreign policy around oil, why can’t the US? I’m serious. I want a point by point justification for the statement that this was not about oil to a large degree. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/17 "2003-05-23T13:05:43Z")
Where is the debate? Well, I’d like to apologize, firstly, I was a bit sleepy when I posted this thread, and I seem to have… er… forgotten the second half. What happened? I can understand the retroactive legitimizing of the invasion… realpolitik and suchlike, though I could have seen a Taiwan situation happening. But what I don’t understand is the sudden rollover of the UN. Why are they not giving the US a harder time about governing? Why are they not asking for more in the governance of Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/18 "2003-05-23T13:23:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrTuffPaws \* > **Personally, I would have rather had them wait until it was clear that there are no WMD in Iraq.** They did. Regardless, this is a way to make sure the US and UK pay the price for their actions. Iraq is now officially our problem, and the rest of the UN is not going to bail us out. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/19 "2003-05-23T14:41:51Z")
Persoally I wonder if ol’ George had wished the courts had decided against him in the whole Vote count thing. He won that battle but is losing the war. El Predicto says… another One Term Bush who couldn’t be bailed out on the homeland support for war with Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906/20 "2003-05-23T14:54:35Z")
Not to stir things up, but a quick question: Would it have been possible, legally, for Haliburton (and the others) to begin work in Iraq if the sanctions had not been lifted? If not, it seems to me this is perhaps part of the big rush and sudden interest in getting this resolution passed and the sanctions removed - to allow money to start flowing from Iraqi oil wells into American hands. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/our-war-was-just-just-approved-at-least/176906.md?page=2)