nope, I have no idea how to turn that into a link, live with it.
FTR, I think Random is completely right when he warns against assuming symmetry where there isn’t any. Saying that the sub-Saharan cultures didn’t achieve great scientific results is only racist if one goes on to say that it’s a result of the people being inferior in some way. If they simply decided to develop their cultures in a way that didn’t stress scientific development, then of course they wouldn’t be seeing any.
Unfortunately, that would also leave said cultures at the (non-existing) mercy of societies that pushed scientific development of better weaponry.
As far as can be reasonably ascertained, we owe one of the most primary technologies, our DNA, to the peoples of Africa.
Geneticists, who have MUCH better and more accurate tools at their disposal than archeologists, have shown that we can all trace our ancestry back to the indigenous people on the southern tip of Africa - the KhoiSan. Cool, eh? We are all African, like it or not.
GOOD education (at least in South Africa) was limited to whites (a very small population group compared, say, with the population in the US). And even that education was severly limited by the country being cut off from the rest of the world. I can’t really speak for the rest of Africa, but I suspect that the colonialists, who (relatively recently) brought the western / grecian formal education system to Africa, had vested interests in keeping the locals uneducated (and easier to ‘enslave’ economically).
Thus a very small number of Africans in total received the type of education that leads to discoveries and advances recognised by, and useful to, the Western world (and thus recorded in Western books etc.)
Spiny Norman, I love your take on this. Bringing racism into the mix is ludicrous. The societies that have flourished for tens of thousands of years have been altered, I would say all in all, negatively by intrustion of modern ( White/European) influences.
Case in point? The paving of the Conchassa Highway, in Africa This turned that road into the convenient avenue by which some of the most deadly virus’ on the planet have been spread. Prior to it’s modernization, the Highway could not handle large trucking. Disease such as HIV,and Ebola were not spread as rapidly, or as far. Once it was paved… and the populations moving through infected areas grew larger… such things spread.
Before we all go slamming a look at this whole idea as racist, I would say that in each culture we can find advances, and moments of astonishing beauty. Why not revel in these?
Cartooniverse
" If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel. "
Nice, Tom, several others, too.
I also think the bias in our text books runs towards the wasp side and American inventions and discoveries. A kind of nationalism.
Could you name the last two great inventors/discover(hum)persons in FRance? Spain? Italy? Canada? Germany? Russia? I know I can’t, I have enough to keep track of here!
What has come out of France the last 50 years? Concorde?
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
Thanks, everyone (especially tomndebb). Your answers were helpful. And thanks to everyone for keeping a cool head about things. I had a hard time even deciding how to phrase this question in a way that wouldn’t make everyone immidiately start calling me a racist. Thanks for your honest answers.
“I should not take bribes and Minister Bal Bahadur KC should not do so either. But if clerks take a bribe of Rs 50-60 after a hard day’s work, it is not an issue.” ----Krishna Prasad Bhattarai, Current Prime Minister of Nepal
Some of these, of course, were joint or simultaneous developments. Most of the basis for modern physics was developed in Europe by pepole like Einstein and Heisenberg (and Curie and Rutherford earlier).
Germany’s contributions kinda stand alone don’t they?
Is it culture bound? How the individuals look at their world and themselves?
What about China? It’s Confucian background might make the status quo or your grandparent’s status quo “a good life” and inventing new things might seem, well, uppity!
And if Budda said men should follow. “The Middle Way,” well, people who don’t care about inproving their position in the world, who’d want to get rid of worldly thoughts and feelings -not going to invent a better toaster, huh?
I don’t know the driving forces of the cultures of the peoples of Africa - might be interesting. Does anyone know?
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
In all of the culture debates that favor Europe above all others, you play the “China” card and people get quiet. While boostering China’s accomplishments to Eurocentrists doesn’t tackle the Africa question, it begs the bias question. If we also include those areas in her sphere as well (seems fair when we use terms such as “Europe”, also, China has always been culturally dominant in the far east).
Gunpowder
moveable type (Korea)
natural gas pipelines (bamboo)
lateen sails
paper
silk production
development of bronze smelting independent of Europe/middle east
advanced astronomy independent of the middle east
porcelain
full fledged domestic auto industry by 1900 (Japan)
The richest country in the world in 1800 (several new books out on this).
From China? Do you have a cite? I’m not challenging so much as curious. The Chinese very definitely had good ocean-going ships, but I’ve never seen an illustration of a Chinese ship lateen-rigged. The earliest illustrations (I have seen) of lateen rigs are from Greek texts of the ninth century. While the lateen sail is found thoughout the Mediterranean and along the shores of the eastern Indian Ocean, I am not aware of them being found in the Pacific except where Islamic missionaries/explorers landed.
“Modern” sternpost rudders and watertight compartments certainly were Chinese in origin.
As far as I know, use of the lateen in the Mediterranian predates European contact with China by about 1,000 years. Even the name comes from the Mediterranian or “Latin” Sea. The design was a favorite of Arab voyagers and could well have been introduced by them to the East Indies (along with Islam)in the 11th and 12th centuries.
That doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been developed independently in Asia. I haven’t see evidence of that, though.
You want to know what Africa contributed in the way of inventions and discoveries? Well, go to the nearest Nation of Islam board (Black Moslems) and ask. According to the NOI, Africans created EVERYTHING!
(No, I’m NOT kidding.)
According to NOI, the White Devils stole all of the Black inventions and claimed them for themselves. Louis Farrikan will assure anyone who will listen that Africans invented everything from the wheel to nuclear power and had a booming technological civilization long before the White man ever set foot in Africa.
The scary thing is – thousands of Black people believe him. What is interesting is that while claiming to be Moslem and preaching a distorted Moslem belief (Black Moslems), true Moslems deny any association with this distorted and crazy religion.
This is a semi-hijack, but it’s somewhat related to this thread, so I’ll put it here rather than start a new one.
About a year ago, someone handed me a list of inventions and other creative achievements of Africans. On this list were the works of Beethoven. Was Beethoven African? How did I go through my whole life missing this?
“Buffalo Bills? Oh, yeah. The guys that always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.” --WallyM7
I don’t think so. One of the 18th century French composers was mixed race (I can’t remember which one) and I have heard a story that Tschaikovsky had a black grandfather (that I can’t confirn at the moment).
Beethoven, however, was Flemish and they had been kept out of the colonial expansion game (and, therefore, contact with Africa) by the Spanish occupation. Had Beethoven been Dutch, I would give it more credit, as the Dutch did, indeed, bring people back from Africa.
I can’t say that it is impossible, (and I have seen those wierd NOI claims), but I don’t find it very likely.
Lateen sails were said to be used in the South China Sea by Buckminster Fuller in “Critical Path” his ranting volume. (I’m so glad to finally have remember a SPECIFIC source form the 2000+ volumes I’ve read in the pat 25 years). He thinks they predated mediterranean use. He also thinks civilization was at a higher level in the archepelagos of SE Asia before or concurrent with Mesopotamia.
His theory is that many of those (potentiallly excavatable) areas are just slightly underwater due to a slight rise in the ocean level since the lat ice age and silting in delta areas. He has some good arguments to back up this theory amoung them language development, subsequent civilizations, etc.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by tomndebb:
**I don’t think so. One of the 18th century French composers was mixed race (I can’t remember which one) and I have heard a story that Tschaikovsky had a black grandfather (that I can’t confirn at the moment).
Pushkin was the guy in question. No secret there - totally uncontested. He was at least 1/4 pure African. By American standards of what “black” is, I’m sure it was apparent in a court of Russians.
I have a more-than-passing interest in ancient architecture and note that while the northern end of Africa has lots of interesting examples, there isn’t a whole heck of a lot in the middle, or down south. Which doesn’t quite stand to reason, since humans have been wandering around there for quite a long time now. - There are generally two possible reasons for this lack of lasting architecture; either people were isolated enough that they didn’t need fortresses, or the materials were difficult to come by, and people (as a group) weren’t organized enough to make use of them.
There is a famous fortress somewhere built of mud; it requires constant maintenance as the rain erodes it. (-another book in the storage unit-) There’s also much evidence that it’s not all that ancient; it is similar to European designs of the last couple hundred years and the lack of durability means that it’s unlikely that it has existed for very long (in a historical sense). I don’t particularly recall when maintenance was begun. - MC
