# Out of balance political power: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 1, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643 "2021-11-01T18:49:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/1 "2021-11-01T18:49:03Z")
I’m trying to think of other politicians that have wielded as much political power as Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema have despite their never having been elected to a national position or even a position of leadership within their own party. Manchin is the senior senator from a small population state that is last in income. Sinema is from a much larger state but has only been in the Senate since 2018. Due to a razor thin majority in the Senate, they (particularly Manchin IMHO) have been able to dictate the future of spending bills, infrastructure, etc despite the wishes of the rest of their party members up to and including the President. If this were the pit, I’d go into what I think of this, but it isn’t so I won’t. What other political figures (either US or worldwide) have been able to match their political power despite their relative obscurity and/or lack of de jure power? I say “de jure” since neither is majority leader nor in an official position of leadership in the Democratic party. Joseph McCarthy comes to mind but at least he was the head of the infamous committee. I realize that Manchin is the chair of the Senate Energy Committee but I don’t believe that that is the source of his power. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/2 "2021-11-01T18:57:11Z")
If they went along with the program they would completely fly under the radar. Democrats have such a flimsy majority that anyone who bucks the party line will have sudden power. It’s a shame, and I don’t know why either of them bother with the “Democrat” label. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/3 "2021-11-01T18:58:22Z")
Arlen Specter was somewhat close. By switching parties in 2009, he gave the Democrats a super majority which allowed for the ACA to go through. Otherwise it would have been filibustered as not a single Republican was willing to allow it to go through. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/4 "2021-11-01T20:08:52Z")
Specter had almost no power. He only switched parties in a fruitless attempt to save his own skin because he was gonna be toast in a Republican primary. Senate Democrats wouldn’t even recognize his seniority on committees, making him the most junior member of his committees despite having been in the Senate 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/5 "2021-11-01T23:42:54Z")
Joe Lieberman was pretty powerful during part of his career in the Senate. > As Senator, Lieberman introduced and championed the [Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Repeal Act of 2010](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Ask,_Don%27t_Tell_Repeal_Act_of_2010) and legislation that led to the creation of the [Department of Homeland Security](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Homeland_Security). During debate on the [Affordable Care Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act) (ACA), as the crucial 60th vote needed to pass the legislation, his opposition to the [public health insurance option](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health_insurance_option) was critical to its removal from the resulting bill signed by President [Barack Obama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama). > **[Joe Lieberman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Lieberman)** > > Joseph Isadore Lieberman (/ˈliːbərmən/; born February 24, 1942) is an American politician, lobbyist, and attorney who served as a United States senator from Connecticut from 1989 to 2013. A former member of the Democratic Party, he was its nominee for vice president of the United States in the 2000 U.S. presidential election. During his final term in office, he was officially listed as an independent Democrat and caucused with and chaired committees for the Democratic Party. > Lieberman was e... ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/6 "2021-11-01T23:44:03Z")
I have often wondered why more people from a party of a slim majority haven’t pulled this shit. If every single senator is needed to pass a bill, couldn’t they all demand some sort of special treatment either for themselves or their constituents? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/7 "2021-11-01T23:45:59Z")
Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski come to mind. If not for them the Trump years might have been a bit worse. I think they were put under the same kind of pressure Senators Manchin and Sinema are getting today. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/8 "2021-11-01T23:52:08Z")
I read this somewhere on Facebook: “We need to stop acting as if Democrats are in the majority in the Senate. We’re not. The Senate is made up of 50 Republicans, 46 Democrats, two independents who caucus with the Democrats, The Joker, and Poison Ivy.” ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/9 "2021-11-02T00:15:37Z")
I know that I specifically said “political figures” in the OP but J. Edgar Hoover might have been the most powerful man in the US at one time despite not being elected to office. But I’d say that he counts since he was a political appointee. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/10 "2021-11-02T03:33:40Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > What other political figures (either US or worldwide) have been able to match their political power despite their relative obscurity and/or lack of de jure power? John McCain in 2017? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/11 "2021-11-02T06:35:51Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > It’s a shame, and I don’t know why either of them bother with the “Democrat” label. And yet, it’s a good thing they still do. If nothing else, it gets us a Democrat for Majority Leader. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/12 "2021-11-02T08:57:25Z")
A recent example in the UK is Arlene Foster. In 2017, the Conservatives had to cobble together a coalition with the Democratic Unionist Party, a tiny reactionary party from Northern Ireland. Suddenly, Foster – head of the DUP – had a wildly disproportionate influence on UK policy. Foster made demands that were logically impossible to meet. She said the UK absolutely had to leave the customs union with the EU but that Northern Ireland absolutely could not have any customs border with the EU or with the (rest of the) UK. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/13 "2021-11-02T11:51:54Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski come to mind. I know they furrowed their brows a lot, but what legislation or justices did they ever stop, or even get modified? My impression was that they made noise, but then went with the flow – I don’t remember them demanding changes (let alone getting them) or stopping anything. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/14 "2021-11-02T13:37:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I have often wondered why more people from a party of a slim majority haven’t pulled this shit. If every single senator is needed to pass a bill, couldn’t they all demand some sort of special treatment either for themselves or their constituents? How often in history has a party attempted to pass such far reaching, impactful, and ideologically polarizing legislation with such a slim majority? I’m guessing this is the first time ever, and that that’s the answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/15 "2021-11-02T13:42:24Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t remember them demanding changes (let alone getting them) or stopping anything. John McCain, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski were the three Senate Republicans who voted against repeal of Obamacare in 2017. Without all of their votes, it would have passed. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/16 "2021-11-02T13:47:40Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > How often in history has a party attempted to pass such far reaching, impactful, and ideologically polarizing legislation with such a slim majority? I would say the Bush tax cuts and then the Trump tax cuts – both were polarizing, both were passed with a slim majority, and both damaged the country rather than helped it. > [@flurb](#): > > John McCain, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski were the three Senate Republicans who voted against repeal of Obamacare in 2017. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/17 "2021-11-02T14:22:34Z")
Because most of the people in that party actually _want_ these things to pass. In fact, they want more than the current bill. What would they get from blocking legislation that they favor? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/18 "2021-11-02T15:09:03Z")
That’s a good point. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/19 "2021-11-02T15:22:38Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > > [@bobot](#): > > > > It’s a shame, and I don’t know why either of them bother with the “Democrat” label. > > And yet, it’s a good thing they still do. If nothing else, it gets us a Democrat for Majority Leader. Thus far, it’s hard to tell that the majority leader has more power than the minority leader. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/20 "2021-11-02T15:25:01Z")
The Republican example of “out of balance political power” that comes to mind, although it never happened in real life, would be Liz Cheney if the presidential election last year had been gridlocked long enough and gone to the House of Representatives. States vote by delegation, and Republicans had 26 delegations to the Democrats’ 24. Liz Cheney was/is the sole representative of Wyoming. So she had power to determine the entire presidential outcome all on her own. If she went for Trump, Trump would have won; had she gone for Biden, it would have been a 25-25 tie and Nancy Pelosi would become president. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643.md?page=2)