# Out of balance political power: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 1, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643 "2021-11-01T18:49:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/41 "2022-01-19T21:35:57Z")
Whatabout ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/42 "2022-01-19T22:05:08Z")
If you support someone standing up to their party to do what is right, surely you must also support someone for standing up to their party do do what is wrong! Otherwise, you’re just a hypocrite! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/43 "2022-01-19T22:17:42Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Are they not standing up to partisanship by bucking their party in favor of the desires of their constituents? No, they are not. Their constituents want the Build Back Better bill for example. Unless you mean the mine owners. I guess those are the constituents who count. [Cite](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/21/business/coal-miners-joe-manchin/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/44 "2022-01-20T00:47:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > How does this not apply to Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin? Are they not standing up to partisanship by bucking their party in favor of the desires of their constituents? Standing up against partisanship is nice, but when are we expected to see results? What’s the path? McCain’s vision of the future of America is not materializing. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/45 "2022-01-20T01:06:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Remember when John McCain was the solution? He was a ‘Maverick’ who stepped beyond partisanship to do what’s right. He was a hero. People like John McCain who stand up against their party’s leadership are the answer to blind partisanship - or so we were told by the left when McCain bucked his party’s establishment. > > How does this not apply to Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin? Are they not standing up to partisanship by bucking their party in favor of the desires of their constituents? It seems to me that if you hate partisanship, McCain, Sinema and Manchin should be your guiding lights, not partisan hacks like Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden or Mitch McConnell. It seems that “maverickism” has gone out of vogue among the liberals. Sinema and Manchin are heretics opposed to the religion of Big Government and must be punished. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/46 "2022-01-20T05:03:43Z")
I mean - I get why that would be a Fox News talking point to put a heroic spin on it, but we all know here that they’re just out and out corrupt and were bought to prevent any sort of change that would burden the rich, right? There’s no principled stances here, it’s purely corruption. We all see that, right? We’re just playing a game by pretending it’s somehow principled. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/47 "2022-01-20T11:30:56Z")
Apathy and greed are difficult to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/48 "2022-01-20T11:53:38Z")
the problem is manchins one of the few if not the only “southern democrats” left and he’s from coal country and he’s trying/getting paid by coal companies to save a dying/dead industry that made up at least 75 percent of the jobs in what always either the poorest or next to poorest state in the union If they put coal subsidies and removed the clean energy part of the bill he’d be on board … ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/49 "2022-01-20T16:34:33Z")
Why even have senators and representatives from individual states, if they are expected to follow the party line in all votes? Just come up with some formula based upon population and political surveys done every so often, and federal decisions would be made by an artificial intelligence that takes pulse of the people on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/50 "2022-01-20T17:50:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Why even have senators and representatives from individual states, if they are expected to follow the party line in all votes? I don’t think that they _are_ expected to follow the party line in all votes. Or any, even. OTOH, many people in the general public do think that the parties _are_ a monolithic block, and will do ignorant things like blame Biden for Manchin or Sinema’s actions. And they are welcome to explain why they are willing to join the Republicans in being against infrastructure and voting rights bills, rather than simply vote no and slink away, leaving the party to try to explain their actions. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Just come up with some formula based upon population and political surveys done every so often, and federal decisions would be made by an artificial intelligence that takes pulse of the people on a regular basis. That’s not a terrible idea, actually. Beats the current system where politicians vote for interests of the lobbyist that gives them the most money. I can see a number of issues with your proposal, in that we’d have to trust whoever makes the formula to not be biased, as well as those who choose the surveys to feed into it, but with some effort, it’s possible that your idea could be viable. Best idea would be to have an educated populace, so you don’t get situations like we have, where people vote for the politician that falsely promises to bring back their coal mining jobs, rather than the one that demonstrates how they will help them transition to better paying, safer, and less physically damaging jobs to replace those coal mining jobs that are _never_ coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/51 "2022-01-20T17:57:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Best idea would be to have an educated populace Good luck with that…never happen. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/52 "2022-01-20T18:07:06Z")
True that, one of the battles that the Republicans seem to be winning is the dumbing down of our populace. Manchin and Sinema are fully board with this effort. Kinda sucks that we have decided to throw out a century of effort in expanding education, but what can you do? Authoritarians had much more control over illiterate populations in the past, and is seems that is the goal for the present day authoritarians that Manchin and Sinema are supporting. Improving society, the country, and the world is hard work. Destroying it and ruling over the ashes is much easier. Too bad the latter get more encouragement than the former. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/53 "2022-01-20T18:42:34Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > if they are expected to follow the party line in all votes? I assume you’re mostly directing this at the Republicans? They seem to be a solid voting bloc nearly all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/54 "2022-01-20T18:52:49Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I assume you’re mostly directing this at the Republicans? They seem to be a solid voting bloc nearly all the time. Not really. I’m directing it to all voters that expect party line votes of politicians that aren’t elected by them but just happen to have run on their party affiliation. Representatives are voted in by the voters from their state, etc. I don’t believe that because you run on one single party that you are expected to tow the line of every party platform objective, or the Executive branch if they are of the same party as you. Group think isn’t a great way to develop policy. It should be debated and challenged by free thinking individuals. Thankfully there have been Republicans that were and have been outspoken regarding Trumpism. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/55 "2022-01-20T19:13:05Z")
The Biden-Harris campaign promised 10 Million jobs as a result of their climate policies. How many have been created to date? Zero. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/56 "2022-01-20T19:18:46Z")
WTF? Their climate policies are in the Build Back Better bill which was stymied by M&S. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/57 "2022-01-20T19:29:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > rather than the one that demonstrates how they will help them transition to better paying, safer, and less physically damaging jobs to replace those coal mining jobs that are _never_ coming back. I’m referring to this quote. How has President Biden demonstrated that? Whom has he helped transition to better jobs? BBB does not have majority support in the Senate. Shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/58 "2022-01-20T19:32:08Z")
Have you talked to your party about how what they are doing to help America achieve these goals? You are in favor of these goals right? About which you are criticizing the party who was blocked by your party from passing it? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/59 "2022-01-20T19:33:57Z")
I didn’t realize that the legislation that they had proposed had been passed by congress. Could you please cite when that happened? If not, then all you are doing here is joining in with the disappointment with Manchin and Sinema and their letting down of the American people. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > to tow the line Toe the line. and… > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I don’t believe that because you run on one single party that you are expected to tow the line of every party platform objective, or the Executive branch if they are of the same party as you. Group think isn’t a great way to develop policy. It should be debated and challenged by free thinking individuals. Sure, but do you somehow think that you are unique or special in that “belief”? It’s not that Manchin and Sinema aren’t toeing the line, it’s that they are letting down not just the country, but even their own constituents. Manchin is _never_ bringing back those coal mining jobs back to his constituents, no matter how much lobbying money he takes to side with Republicans. Is it somehow wrong to express disappointment at them for that? ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643/60 "2022-01-20T19:38:57Z")
A naïve filibuster question: what stops them from changing it long enough to pass the voting rights bill, and then just changing it back to the way it was? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/out-of-balance-political-power-joe-manchin-and-kyrsten-sinema/953643.md?page=4)