Out of Curiosity: Could Donald Trump Win a Suit Against Rosie O'Donnell?

Yeah, but Trump convinced some of his viewers that O’Donnell is fat and obnoxious and not as brilliant as she thinks she is.

Oh… wait…

I have to say that while they’re true I thought the fat comments were the least excusable. Good God, man, there are one helluva lot more Rosie lookalikes than there are Ivana/Marla/Melania lookalikes, even among your own set, and Rosie’s never exactly tried to hide the fact she’s overweight (she in fact is adamantly opposed to unnecessary extreme procedures and fad diets). He also claimed she made Danny Devito look like an alcoholic (I’ve no idea if Devito has a drinking problem but he was definitely drunk on their show) and misrepresented her career. The ultimate eyeroll for me is that he could so easily have won this showdown and made Rosie look like the loudmouthed know-it-all she is with a couple of well place biting quips and then silence, which makes me wonder if he’s really the brains behind the Trump empire.

AP Stylebook, pg. 343. “California is an example of a state that distinguishes substantially between libel and slander.” The book goes on at length with the state’s statutory definition of slander.

“Defamation,” the book points out, includes both libel and slander.

As I said, my current version is at the office. This is from an edition published several years ago. The law may have changed.

That libel is not slander, and slander is not libel, is not in question. They are two different types of defamation. What your prior post stated was that defamation was a different thing from either one. It was to this that Campion was refering.

I wouldn’t quote an AP Style manual for information about legal systems, by the way. You might want to quote the law of the state, easily found, probably on line at Findlaw. :slight_smile:

Here, at any rate, libel includes sound recordings and and TV broadcasts which are capable of being recorded by the viewer in ‘permanent reproducible form’

Yes, I wanted to address this, because someone up above made some sort of comment about slander only being private statements, which is not correct. I think they are confusing the fact that slander is spoken defamation, whereas libel is “written” defamation. Since a recording is a “writing,” as it were, if you make a recording of your spoken declaration that defames someone, and then “publish” (a term of art in defamation law) that recording, you have committed libel in most states.

So, to take as an example Rosie on her show. If during her monologue she utters a false statement of fact about Donald Trump, she has slandered him to the audience that is there, live. If this is recorded, and broadcast, she has libeled him to everyone who sees the broadcast. Needless to say, the libel will be considered the far more egregious act, the one really in need of redress legally.

Now, here I will have to rely on memory, since I’m not going to bother looking it up, and it HAS been some 20 years since I had to know all this crap to pass California’s Bar Exam, but IIRC, you can get nominal damages from defamation cases, meaning you don’t have to prove actual damages to obtain an award, though the amount of the award may not be very large (sometimes, merely symbolic). Again, perhaps someone who recomembers this better than I do (like Campion or Gfactor can chime in and correct me. :slight_smile:

In the documentary *Born Rich * Ivanka Trump talked about her father’s bankrupcy. She said something about walking past a homeless man and her father saying at the time that he had less money than the homeless guy did. She then talked about how he built up his fortune again.

On her blog I think Rosie said she got her information from Wikipedia.

All this, I believe, is still going to be subject to the public figure doctrine, under which Trump, in order to get any damages, would have to prove actual malice – that Rosie knew that it was untrue and said it specifically in order to damage his reputation. It would be difficult, I think, because everything Rosie said, whether strictly accurate or not, is already information in the public domain. Furthermore, Trump would have to show that people’s believing that he has been bankrupt, that he has been married more than once, and that he has engaged in extramarital affairs would damage him specifically, and I think he would have a hard time doing that for a few reasons: (1) I believe he has admitted to doing as much previously, and (2) in this day and age it would be hard to show that information like this could actually harm someone like Trump. The biggest obstacle, of course, would still be that he would have to show that Rosie made a false statement of fact. Most of what she said is opinion and even if her statement about his bankruptcy is not strictly true, it’s probably not false enough to be a false statement of fact, if you get my drift.

Basically, under the First Amendment, a statement by Rosie that amounts to “Trump is no one to be judging someone else’s morals” is protected speech.

Similarly, Trump’s statements that Rosie is ugly, unpleasant, a “loser” (boy, does he love that word), hated by her boss, and is at risk of losing her mate to someone more attractive are all opinions and are not actionable.

Any statement of opinion is not defamatory by its very nature: opinions are not “true or false.” The First Amendment has nothing to do with that.

I didn’t discuss the issue of added hurdles for public figures because it isn’t relevant to the point I was making. The First Amendment DOES have something to do with the concept of “malice” as a requirement in some defamation cases. But that has nothing to do with the difference between libel and slander. :slight_smile:

It’s my impression that in some non-American defamation law regimes:

(1) Truth is not necessarily a complete defense
(2) Opinion can be defamatory

The First Amendment has something to do with the truth and opinion defenses. To impose liability for true statements and opinions (especially about public figures) is an abridgement of freedom of speech/press. Purely hypothetically speaking, if by some chance it was decided on a common law level that these were not complete defenses to a defamation claim, it could very well become a First Amendment question.

The reason I brought it up is that actual malice is going to be Trump’s real hurdle, I believe. It’s a lot more difficult to prove than actual damages.

Of course. Did I suggest so? As I said before, it’s my impression that slander is a relatively rare claim under American legal regimes and liability for slander is uncommon these days. All (or almost all) the action is on the libel side.

Here, truth can be a defence - but you as defendant will have to prove it’s true, rather than leaving the plaintiff to prove that it isn’t. Opinions are not defamatory.
We could go into the ‘Albert Reynolds’ defence which several newpapers here have run in recent years. In that case, the Law Lords ruled that newspapers that have made defamatory statements - even if they cannot subsequently prove the truth of them - should be protected from prosecution, if the information published is sufficiently important that the interest in publishing it outweighs concerns about safeguarding a person’s reputation. However that’s arguably getting away from the original question.

He couldn’t win because most people think he was bankrupt, so even if he wasn’t his image couldn’t have suffered.

Absolutely irrelevant.

Why? If people already thought he’d been bankrupt, then clearly what she said hasn’t changed their opinions of him. And I am positive he’s bragged about it. Problem is Google only goes to 1000 references and this case has swallowed them all up.

Because it would only be relevant to an issue of damages, and as I stated previously (and still believe to be true, though I could be wrong, as I mentioned before), defamation suits allow for presumptive damages. That means that you don’t have to prove actual damage; you get an award based on the conduct alone.

So it doesn’t matter if the lie is commonly believed; by repeating it, you are further damaging the already sullied reputation of the person involved. Perpetuating the problem, so to speak. And According to Pliny asserted it would affect his chances to “win” (meaning, being successful in the suit), which, as I have shown, it would not. Thus, irrelevant.

Ok. Here’s the deal:

  1. Presumed damages. Still available in some jurisdictions in some cases, but not easy for Trump to get. Let’s start at the beginning:

In most slander cases, at common law, the plaintiff had to show “special harm,” which is actual damage to reputation. Defamation, Libel, and Slander Per Se But there were some categories of defamation that were “per se,” bad enough to presume damages. As Justice White described the common law rule in Gertz v. Welch,

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=418&invol=323

*Gertz * restricted this practice:

So no more presumed damages unless the plaintiff can show actual malice. *Dun & Bradstreet * limited Gertz to cases in which the statement “touches public concern.” http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=472&invol=749 Because Trump is a public figure, he’d have to prove actual malice no matter what. But *Gertz * & Dun & Bradstreet have caused some uncertainty in the courts. E.g., http://www.supremecourt.nm.org/supctforms/jury/VIEW/13-1010.html

I could go on an on, but that’s the gist of it. It’s a mess, and you have to look at the cases in the jurisdiction where the case gets filed. And that could be a lot of places. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=465&invol=770 Of course, it doesn’t follow that a jurisdiction will apply its own law to the case, but I think I’ve made my point: It’s tough to tell exactly what standards will get applied, other than the federal one imposing the actual malice requirement.

  1. The didn’t change people’s opinions could have some relevance, after all. In Guccione v. Hustler, 800 F.2d 298; 1986 U.S. App. LEXIS 29667; 13 Media L. Rep. 1316 (2d Cir. 1986), the court faced a claim by Penthouse publisher Bob Guccione, who claimed he’d been defamed by Hustler. I quote extensively from the opinion for two reasons. First, because it’s the work of a federal employee, and hence, not subject to copyright. And Second, because I have an autistic child screeching in the next room:

The jury was instructed:

Hustler objected to the instruction and the appellate court said:

  1. Libel vs. slander is an interesting distinction, but between restrictions on presumed damages, state courts curtailing per se categories, and general misuse of the terms by courts over the years, it really doesn’t have much left to it. *E.g., * http://linuxmafia.com/pub/skeptic/libel-per-se-caselaw

I have noticed that many have remarked that Trump’s status as a public figure makes it tougher on him, as he has to prove damages or malice.

I agree that Trump is a public figure.

But what is the definition of a public figure?

Being rich aint got nuthin to do with it. There are plenty of rich folk out there that would not be considered “public figures”…

Does the court or judge ultimately decide if a specific person is well known enough to be a “public figure”?

The public figure doctrine is a common law (judge-created) doctrine and is not codified in statute, so, yes, the court has to decide whether it applies in a particular case. Note that it doesn’t make a defamation claim impossible to win. Carol Burnett won a suit against the National Enquirer.

That’s a very good question. I would argue that there are different degrees of public figure and also that what is and is not acceptable to “exploit” or speculate upon would be also malleable. I don’t know what the legal definition is, but I would suggest that it’s a person whose career, persona and private life are all highly publicized with their implicit consent.

It was always okay to write about Trump’s business dealings, of course- they’re matters of public record. I would speculate in my totally amateur opinion that Trump became a public persona and thus it was acceptable to write about him as a PRIVATE person when, after becoming a bestselling author and well known business figure, he actively encouraged media exposure by inviting camera crews into his home and appearing with then wife Ivana and the kids on all manner of programs and became a media gadfly along with his family. When Ivana became a romance novelist then launched various products she became a public figure, then there was Marla. Marla went on interviews, first while dating Donald to say how wonderful he was and how adultery was okay because what she had with him was real, then again after she broke up with him [when she even appeared as herself on the sitcom Designing Women] always to talk about how “don’t know what I was thinking, he was a sleazebag I’m well rid of him”, then again when she went back to him to tell why he wasn’t really a sleaze after all. and finally after theor divorce and baby to tell whatever 12 people for some reason gave a damn why he became a sleaze again, all while Ivana was also holding press converences pertaining to everything from her prenup and why it should be invalidated to her feelings for Marla and the baby and all that crap. All of this exposure, much of it perfectly welcome by a man who LOVES publicity and doesn’t really mind admitting it, made his personal, professional and private lives quite okay to mention without invading privacy long before he voluntarily appeared on and promoted and boasted of one of the highest rated primetime network series and had a high profile celebrity rich wedding (though only Katie Couric took pics and video, against invitation and request, though Donald didn’t seem to mind).

George Ross, otoh, one of Trump’s closest advisors and a regular on The Apprentice (the old man who sits on the right hand of Trump), I would not consider a public figure. The show reveals nothing of his private life other than he’s grumpy and important in Trump Industries and in one of the few interviews he’s given he even stated he was not only uncomfortable with being recognized from the show but that he had not even been compensated for his appearances on the show. (I think he has been since that aired as Trump was a bit embarassed for this to be known, though I seriously doubt George is hurting for money or living soleley on Social Security and scraps that Donald drops.)

Then there are the harder issues: authors, for example.

Dan Brown, author of The DaVinci Code, is probably the bestselling U.S. author of the past decade (not positive of that, but he’s certainly on the short lists) but I would not consider him a public person as he does not invite any publicity that’s not directly related to his book. I know he’s married (or has been married) and I think he has kids but to my knowledge he hasn’t shared anything about his private life beyond the occasional bio-blip of “Dan Brown resides in East Old Mangled Duck Village, New Hampshire with his wife Neutrogena Bauschenlomb Brown, their seventeen daughters and a long-dead Bijon Frise named Fifi” type stuff).

OTOH, JK Rowling is the bestselling novelist in the world and while there are aspects of her life she is very private about her life as a single welfare mom is a huge part of her persona. Certainly it’s okay, imo, to write about her in the “Rowling rents third floor of Buckingham Palace for her London flat: tells Queen 'TURN DOWN THOSE BLOODY JIM NABORS CDs OR I’M CALLING THE COPS!” or “I went to school with JK Rowling and even then she was talking about how one day she was going to write about a boy Satanist and turn kids everywhere into parent killing demons” type human interest stuff, but writing about her father’s financial problems (which some have done) or her daughter in boarding school (which some have done) is not okay as being a public figure is not hereditary. The grey area would be if, say, she had to have a hysterectomy or lumpectomy or something equally highly personal and private (which to the best of my knowledge she hasn’t and of course I certainly hope she doesn’t): while there’s no question as to whether it would be improper to sneak pics from her hospital room with a zoom lens (even if legal), would it be okay to report it in the press without her permission? For that matter if she checked into Betty Ford Clinic for a Wild Turkey and Zantac addiction or had her nose altered, would it be okay to report it if she didn’t first? I’ve no idea.

Of course all this is media coverage in general. Certainly it would be okay for a person to say “Harry Potter’s the most overrated piece of crap and JK Rowling’s a bimbo looking no talent hack” as it’s clearly a matter of opinion. (Not mine: I’m a huge Potter/Rowling fan.) Saying “that bitch stood by and let her dad do without until he had to sell his mementos from her to pay his bill and yet she’s loaded to the gills… I hope she chokes on her money” is getting into the grey area: we do not know all the details of her relationship with her father or what the understanding was of the items he sold or why Rowling did not give him money [generally it’s believed she did not know about his financial problems because he’s proud, etc.] so it’s not just opinion but getting into speculation and misleading…

Sorry, short answer is no answer. For long answer see above. This would be an interesting matter for GD.