Out-of-the-box idea to deal with school shootings

[SlackerInc]

So Derleth, are you seriously accusing me of being a stealth gun owner? That’s hilarious, but also irritating. When I was ten years old, I shot skeet with a shotgun at YMCA camp and shot .22s at targets. In the decades since then, I have not touched a gun. Nor has anyone in my family except my gun nut cousin (and I’ve never seen his guns IRL, just his photos of the many he has), with whom I got into a tense argument just earlier today in which I backed him into a corner where he insisted that yes, he supposes that rich people should be able to buy nukes, since the government should not have a monopoly on violence. And I then told him that was insane and there was no point discussing it further.

If you continue to claim, or even insinuate, that I am being dishonest and have a hidden agenda, I will report you to the mods. Fair warning.

@xizor

Or imagine being a SWAT member rushing into an active shooter situation at a school, and finding every kid armed with a gun, and having to find the one with the real gun out of all the paintball guns.

FFS, you’re actively trying not to let me take feedback and evolve the proposal. I realize that makes it a better strawman for you, but that’s not constructive. I’m talking about the kids having cans of spray paint. Is your SWAT member okay now?

@scr4

Or an attempt to create false equivalences, by insinuating that gun control proposals are as implausible as his ideas.

Riiiight. Having the teacher keep spray cans in a bucket is so much less plausible than overcoming GOP filibusters in the Senate, or (in the case of anything the Supreme Court would consider non-kosher constitutionally) getting two-thirds of the House and Senate to vote for a constitutional amendment, and then getting three-fourths of state legislatures (most of which are GOP-controlled) to ratify it.

@scr4

Obviously we don’t need to “get rid of” all guns to significantly reduce gun deaths, and nobody is suggesting it, so you are arguing against a strawman here.

Nobody? Did you actually read the thread?

Anyway, I would endorse all your proposals. But:

(1) They would face a tough slog, getting by a GOP filibuster in the Senate and then court challenges, which might necessitate a constitutional amendment, which is nigh unto impossible;

(2) They would not get implemented until years from now;

(3) They might marginally reduce, but would certainly not eliminate, the threat of school shootings. And if you still have shootings, you should still have countermeasures.

My proposal would take a meeting of the school board and a few weeks of implementation in any one area. If I got it to pass in the school systems my kids are in, that would be a win for me. Anyone else who wanted to propose it in their school system, go right ahead. It doesn’t have to be this huge, nationwide, heavy lift.

BTW, my wife just got home from her job teaching high school, and said it didn’t sound like a bad idea (she HATED the “arm teachers with guns” proposal), as long as she could keep the spray paint in an emergency bucket in a cabinet. I thought that sounded like it would slow down the process, but she said if she heard shots she could get it out quickly. She said if they were kept under kids’ desks, they would not so much use them in class as steal them and use them for graffiti or other mischief outside of school.

@msmith537

Aside from all the reason’s already stated why this is a stupid idea, how about the very obvious one that your would-be shooter could easy neutralize this countermeasure with a set of protective goggles - the kind they sell for playing paintball.

I’ve shifted to thinking in terms of spraying them with paint, in a wide mist. I’m not talking about causing pain in the shooter’s eyes (though I’m not opposed to that on principle or anything) but making it hard for him to see. Wouldn’t it be even harder to see with goggles coated with paint, compared to with paint in your eyes?

@Crazy_Canuck

Also, there’s the simply fact that while charging the gunman as a group may allow more members of the group to live, it reduces each individuals chance of survival considerably.

Uhhh…not in the case where the shooter is systematically finishing off everyone in a room before moving on. I know that was not the case at Columbine, but I’m pretty sure it was at Sandy Hook and at that Oregon community college. If that’s the case, then even being the member of the group who takes the most dangerous angle gives you a better chance to live than just cowering behind your desk or whatever. The only thing you potentially lose there is a few seconds or at most a couple minutes of life, during which you are feeling sheer terror and anguish.

@Crazy_Canuck

@SlackerInc

I’m starting to think that some people don’t really care about protecting kids, at least not in the short run.

I’m think that this statement is false, disgusting on a moral level, and a clear attempt to poison the well. I’ll remember this about you.

Funny, and very selective, how you didn’t take Little Nemo to task for this accusation, which was levelled at me (with zero evidence that I’m interested in “protecting guns”) before the statement you chided me for:

@Little_Nemo

The central point of all of these “out of the box” suggestions is they’re being offered as an alternative to regulating guns. Which pretty much reveals the true agenda behind them. They’re not concerned with the threat to children. They’re concerned with the threat to guns. These ideas are about protecting guns not children.

[Derleth]

@SlackerInc

So Derleth, are you seriously accusing me of being a stealth gun owner?

No. I’m not. I’m accusing you of being so utterly anti-gun-control for a reason I never guessed at that you can’t see how transparently insane your ideas are.

If you continue to claim, or even insinuate, that I am being dishonest and have a hidden agenda, I will report you to the mods. Fair warning.

Never accused you of that, either. I don’t care why you’re gibbering idiocy in this thread, only that you’re doing it, and what the specific kind of idiocy says about your apparent mental blocks.

[Derleth]

Because hope springs eternal or something:

SlackerInc, imagine someone were to propose elaborate isolation and treatment wards for people with the mumps. Like sanitariums or similar, to prevent mumps outbreaks. What would you say to them? Would you debate the finer points in detail, or would you point out that we have an effective way to prevent mumps outbreaks, it’s called THE MMR VACCINE, and coming up with elaborate ways to avoid using it is more than a little cracked?

Because that beat-your-head-against-a-wall, miss-the-obvious-answer feeling is what everyone else is getting from you right now.

[SlackerInc]

@Derleth

Never accused you of that, either.

Uh huh. You are aware that your posts are still up there above these? To wit:

@Derleth

So cut the pose and admit that this is what the extremist anti-gun-control faction has sunk to

ETA: Your MMR vaccine “analogy” is so ridiculous I don’t even know where to begin. Funny how I didn’t realize to get a MMR shot we had to get two-thirds of Congress and three-fourths of the state legislatures to go along despite GOP opposition, then overcome certain armed opposition over a period of years. I thought you could just go to the doctor’s office, a clinic, or even a pharmacy, and just spend a few minutes getting a shot in the arm!

[Derleth]

@SlackerInc

Uh huh. You are aware that your posts are still up there above these? To wit:

Hey, I had hope you would admit a certain similarity of outcome, if not a similarity of purpose.

[Banquet_Bear]

@SlackerInc

FFS, people are so frozen in their partisan stances that they can’t recognize when someone like me is a Democrat who has several children in school and wants to do something realistic to protect them.

…many schools cannot even afford to purchase the basics: with teachers having to dip into their own pockets for things like pens and notebooks.

The very cheapest paintball marker is $20.00 for a splatmaster. For a school with a thousand students that $20,000. Then you have to buy paintballs. And paintballs have a shelf-life, and that shelf-life depends on how those paintballs are stored and the conditions they are stored in. So all of this has to be maintained. Paintballs swapped out every few weeks. You are going to have to invent a mechanism to hold each splatmaster under the seat of every chair. Students are going to have to be taught how they work. They need to be taught basic safety, and the most basic safety lesson, don’t point the marker at someone in the face without a mask on, is the complete opposite of the entire purpose of having the markers in school.

TLDR: there isn’t anything remotely fucking realistic about your proposal. Its expensive and you’ve presented absolutely zero evidence it would make a difference. You would have to hire teams of people to maintain this. It would be cheaper just to hire more armed security guards. It would be cheaper to ring classrooms with electric fences.

If you are so invested in this proposal then don’t argue with strangers on the internet. Ask your wife to set up a trial at your local school. Find out exactly how effective your proposal would be by simulating it with an “armed intruder” and a bunch of children with paintball guns. I suspect it won’t go well. But if you really think that this is the obvious solution, and that everybody else has gotten it wrong, then go out and prove us wrong.

[AlsoNamedBort]

From what I can tell, the Parkland shooter just quickly fired into each room before moving onto the next one. The whole thing last a few minutes. The whole “everyone get out from cover so you can shoot the guy with paint” strategy wouldn’t really work.

[SlackerInc]

Banquet Bear, care to re-price that based on spray cans the teacher keeps in a cabinet?
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[Dewey_Finn]

@Flyer

@glee

The proven alternative is gun control.

If you mean “proven to be ineffective” I agree with you.

There is an astoundingly-ignored fact regarding this issue: EVERY SINGLE mass shooting has taken place in a “gun-free zone.”

Wow. Is that the line they’re passing around among the Second Amendment crowd? Because it’s a really bad argument. Declaring schools “gun-free zones” is in no way a form of gun control.

[Banquet_Bear]

@SlackerInc

Banquet Bear, care to re-price that based on spray cans the teacher keeps in a cabinet?
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…what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Teachers at many schools are buying “spray cans” to keep in a cabinet from out of their own pocket. Where the fuck do you think schools are going to get the money to buy a paintball gun per student, paintballs, holsters, attachment mechanisms, training programmes and ongoing maintenance staff? How on earth can you claim this is “realistic?” Where is your evidence that this would provide any sort of realistic defense?

[TroutMan]

@SlackerInc

Banquet Bear, care to re-price that based on spray cans the teacher keeps in a cabinet?

I thought your brilliant idea was something that would work at distance. Now you want a single teacher to run up to the shooter and spray him in the face while dodging bullets? Or is this your fantasy where the teacher is hiding behind the door and sprays the guy before he knows what happened? Because I’m sure that would work equally well.

[SlackerInc]

Just read my posts, people. FFS
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[Banquet_Bear]

@SlackerInc

Just read my posts, people. FFS
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…we’ve read your posts FFS.

Do you want to try answering my questions?

[SlackerInc]

If you had, you wouldn’t still be talking about paintballs and gun holsters, and the other person wouldn’t be talking about the teacher alone (except maybe teachers of small children, who fortunately don’t get attacked nearly as often).
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[AlsoNamedBort]

Apparently, in the middle of all of his posts, he changes the plan to where he wants the kids to stand in harms way with cans of spray paint.

I like it. We’ll also ice down the hallways and put marbles on the stairwells. I call it “Project Home Alone”

[SlackerInc]

Where exactly would “NOT in harm’s way” be, then?
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[AlsoNamedBort]

@SlackerInc

Where exactly would “NOT in harm’s way” be, then?
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The Parkland shooter was shooting through the door windows. Standing right by that door is the definition of harm’s way. I guess out of harms way would be “away from the guy standing right by the door hold a can of spray paint to stop someone with an AR-15”

[SlackerInc]

I meant RIGHT next to the door, against the wall. Like when you surprise someone.
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[TroutMan]

@SlackerInc

I meant RIGHT next to the door, against the wall. Like when you surprise someone.

You said the teacher and all students would attack the shooter. So which is it? One teacher hiding next to the door, or the teacher and all the students hiding there? Is there room for everyone? Do they spray anyone that walks in the room or wait to confirm it’s the shooter (but not long enough that he can shoot them)?

You seem very invested in this plan to the extent that you are ignoring how ridiculous it is. It might be useful to step back and look at it rationally.

[Little_Nemo]

@SlackerInc

I’m starting to think that some people don’t really care about protecting kids, at least not in the short run. They want to keep the heat on so they can make the NRA as uncomfortable as possible, and practical solutions would not only not achieve that but might reduce the pressure at a time when they feel like they have some momentum.

As I said in my previous post, I also think there are some people who don’t really care about protecting kids. They’re the ones suggesting we indulge in some security theater rather than address the real problem.