# Outfoxed: Why continue to watch when they're clearly partisan and dishonest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559 "2004-08-06T02:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/61 "2004-08-06T18:45:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > and will they use Republicans to give commentary. And will they gush as much over RNC speakers as they did over Clinton and Obama? Aren’t you assuming that anyone at the RNC will give a speech as _good_ as Clinton’s or Obama’s? I’m not saying they won’t, but the amount of praise _due_ to any speech is a dependent variable, not an independent one. I don’t think it’s fair to say evaluations of speeches are an accurate measure of objectivity _per se_ unless the evaluations are distinctly out of whack with the facts. Bill Clinton is a uniquely charasmatic figure in politics. It’s not necessarily partisan to acknowledge that he commands a room in way that no Republican has since Ronald Reagan. Obama blew the roof off. He was an undeniably appealling and energetic speaker who managed not to sound mean or partisan. I don’t know that the Reps are going to have anyone who is going to turn heads the way Obama did. I don’t know that they _won’t_, but I also don’t think the networks have an obligation to over-praise a speaker who doesn’t deserve it just to give an appearance of fairness in comparison to the DNC. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/62 "2004-08-06T18:54:17Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Yea! I agree! After all, pravda is a word which means what exactly, I forget… “Truth”. The other major Soviet newspaper was Izvestia, “News”. Hence the joke “In Pravda there is no izvestia, and in Izvestia there is no pravda.” But we’re stuck with the more pedestrian “Fox News is an oxymoron”. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/63 "2004-08-06T19:04:55Z")
Quoted material from [http://mediamatters.org/items/200408020002](http://mediamatters.org/items/200408020002) Color, underlining, bolding, and italicizing added by me for emphasis. > [@](#): > > LIVE CONVENTION SPEECH AIRTIME > > ``` > FOX > > ``` > > July 26 0:41 > July 27 1:05 > July 28 0:42 > July 29 1:12 > > Total: 3 hours, 40 minutes > > ``` > CNN > > ``` > > July 26 1:10 > July 27 1:23 > July 28 1:08 > July 29 1:15 > > Total: 4 hours, 56 minutes > > ``` > MSNBC > > ``` > > July 26 1:07 > July 27 1:39 > July 28 1:05 > July 29 1:36 > > Total: 5 hours, 27 minutes So, Fox News showed an hour less than CNN and an 90 minutes less than MSNBC. What did they cut or ignore? > [@](#): > > Former President Jimmy Carter: FOX News Channel aired just over four minutes of Carter’s speech; CNN and MSNBC aired almost 14 minutes. > > Former Vice President Al Gore: FOX News Channel aired 45 **seconds** of Gore’s speech; CNN and MSNBC aired 13 _minutes_. > > Senator Edward Kennedy: FOX News Channel aired a little more than four minutes of Kennedy’s speech; CNN and MSNBC aired 25 minutes of his speech. > > Ret. General Wesley Clark: FOX News Channel aired none of Clark’s speech; CNN aired about two minutes and MSNBC aired almost 11 minutes. > > Reverend Al Sharpton: FOX News Channel aired two and a half minutes of Sharpton’s speech live; CNN aired almost 20 minutes, and MSNBC aired almost 17 minutes. > > Reverend Jesse Jackson: FOX News Channel aired none of Jackson’s speech; CNN and MSNBC aired approximately 10 minutes. On July 31st Cal Thomas said this on Fox News Watch: > [@](#): > > If cable networks do the same thing at the Republican convention and interrupt or not cover Republicans, I think the conservatives out there, especially those who are fans of this network are going to scream and yell. So if you’re going to be fair and balanced, I think you have not to cover at least as much of the Republican speakers as you’ve not covered of the Democratic speakers. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/64 "2004-08-06T19:06:12Z")
It is reasonable to argue, as **Abbie** and others have, that Fox News is just the conservative equivalent of equally biased liberal news sources. Such would not be CNN or the old trinity ABC, NCB, & CBS though. The equivalent of Fox News on the liberal end would be Air America Radio. CNN / ABC / CBS / NBC are the American middleground mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/65 "2004-08-06T19:06:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The answer to your last question is “yes”. And could you please cite someone in this thread who has said that O’Reilly is balanced in his commentary? He is a conservative commentator, just like Jim Lehrer, Dan Rather, etc., are liberals. The fact that you can manage to conflate or compare Rather with O’Reily as being the same just on one side of the partisan line or the other, is more refutation of your argument than anyone needs. If I didn’t think that you know already you are just maintaining a unbelievable fiction purely for appearances’ sake, I’d feel sorry for you. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/66 "2004-08-06T19:16:07Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > It is reasonable to argue, as **Abbie** and others have, that Fox News is just the conservative equivalent of equally biased liberal news sources. > > Such would not be CNN or the old trinity ABC, NCB, & CBS though. > > The equivalent of Fox News on the liberal end would be Air America Radio. > > CNN / ABC / CBS / NBC are the American middleground mainstream. I’ve listened to Air America Radio. Specifically the O’Franken Factor and the Randi Rhodes Show. They have been critical of democrats at times as harshly as they’ve been critical of some republicans. Randi had Pat Buchanan on her show and was extremely friendly to him, and I had to experience a momenty of intense cognitive dissonance as I found Buchanan not to come off as an evil psycho. Franken and Rhodes, just because of who they are and NOT just because Fox News will spout unsubstantiated hearsay as ‘news,’ maintain a standard of integrity and do not broadcast their personal views as news, and when putting forth something as fact give their sources for substantiation. If you watched Outfoxed, you would have seen the memos from Roger Ailes, the interviews with former employees, and montages of clips from the Fox ‘News’ shows which substantiates the fact that they are more of an institution disseminating propaganda than a news agency. As they purport to be a news agency, they are guilty of lying to the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/67 "2004-08-06T19:22:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Did you actually watch Fox’s coverage of the DNC? From what little I saw they covered it in as much depth as the other major stations did (I was switching back and forth between CNN, NBC and Fox to get perspective…and even saw a segment on BBC if you can believe it). Not only that, they used Democrats in many segments to commentary (admittedly O’Rielly was also there). I think the REAL test is will the other major network news stations cover the RNC as much as they covered the DNC…and will they use Republicans to give commentary. And will they gush as much over RNC speakers as they did over Clinton and Obama? Um. When I watched, Fox had Newt Gingrich on as their unbiased political commentator. Do you suppose they’ll have Ted Kennedy (or someone equivalent) as their unbiased policital commentator during the RNC? I admit I’m a bit further left than most of America, but Fox is clearly right. There are several examples in this thread of their right-wing bias, and nobody but Fox denies they have one. Can you please give an example of CNN’s left-wing bias? To me, all of that is beside the point, though. Fox News just _looks_ bad. I watched it a bit during the DNC so I wasn’t just dismissing it on reputation, but all of the distracting bells and whistles annoyed me far more than they do on other statoins (my favorite being the image near the anchor’s head at an angle to make it look more high tech or cool or whatever effect they’re going for, which results in the image being less clear, and therefore less useful). ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/68 "2004-08-06T19:22:46Z")
I WILL admit though that Janeane Garafolo, whom I love as a comedienne and an actress, is probably the most abusive person on Air America Radio via her show the Majority Report. While she doesn’t indulge in the lies of Hannity, she does come off as a rabid madwoman and I think hurts herself publicly by not being a LITTLE\* bit more balanced and judicious in her remarks and delivery. \*-By little, I mean Janeane needs to find decaf brands that are just as good. JEEZ! The woman just feeds into a stereotype of bleeding heart liberals being impassioned but not well thought out. I really hate to see her on any panel discussions because I just _know_ I’m going to be embarassed for her and liberals in general when she shoots herself in both feet, a kneecap, and a finger for good measure. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/69 "2004-08-06T19:33:27Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > It is reasonable to argue, as **Abbie** and others have, that Fox News is just the conservative equivalent of equally biased liberal news sources. > > Such would not be CNN or the old trinity ABC, NCB, & CBS though. > > The equivalent of Fox News on the liberal end would be Air America Radio. > > CNN / ABC / CBS / NBC are the American middleground mainstream. These debates provide so much unintentional, if sad, humor. Damnit, I’m telling you that an Elephant is like a wall! No, no! For the last time, it’s like a tree trunk! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/70 "2004-08-06T19:43:37Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > The fact that you can manage to conflate or compare Rather with O’Reily as being the same just on one side of the partisan line or the other, is more refutation of your argument than anyone needs. Actually, I would expect this would take a bit more refutation than simply your assertion. YMMV. [Mine does.](http://www.ratherbiased.com/compare.htm) > [@Apos](#): > > If I didn’t think that you know already you are just maintaining a unbelievable fiction purely for appearances’ sake, I’d feel sorry for you. And if I didn’t think that was a not-very-thinly veiled accusation of trolling, I would respond in some substantive way. But it was, so I won’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/71 "2004-08-06T19:54:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Truth”. The other major Soviet newspaper was Izvestia, “News”. Hence the joke “In Pravda there is no izvestia, and in Izvestia there is no pravda.” > > But we’re stuck with the more pedestrian “Fox News is an oxymoron”. How about “There’s more Foxy than Newsy in that henhouse”? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/72 "2004-08-06T20:02:03Z")
I’m wondering if I missed any cites showing liberal bias on networks like CNN. If I did, could someone point the post(s) out to me? And if I didn’t… can people please refrain from accusing those network stations of having a liberal bias? That would be great, IMHO. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The real test is not how Fox’s coverage of the DNC compares to the other networks but how it will compare to their own coverage of the RNC. This is exactly what came to my mind, when the subject was brought up. Fox is going to have to really watch how much time they devote to the RNC, because – as several posters have already mentioned – if it’s considerably more time than was devoted to the DNC, they are going to have a much harder time convincing people of their “fair and balanced” coverage. Or rather, I would _hope_ that they would have a much harder time. ☹ > [@Shodan](#): > > And could you please cite someone in this thread who has said that O’Reilly is balanced in his commentary? This isn’t necessarily a direct response to your post, **Shodan** , but rather an observation that I would like to share. Anyone who watches the O’ Reilly Factor can certainly vouch that on _several_ occasions (and by “several” I mean… umm… a LOT) Bill will throw in the phrase (paraphrased): “…in our effort to stay fair and balanced.” Oh yeah, and the “No-Spin Zone”. But as several people have pointed out, shows like the O’Reilly Factor are commentaries, not “news”. As such, I believe that the commentaries _should not try to pass themselves off as unbiased news sources_. Maybe this plays a part into why people see Fox News as the complete polar opposite of “fair and balanced”; Fox tends to blur the line, for its audience, of where the “fair and balanced” begins, and where it ends. And regarding _Outfoxed_– my wife and I have ordered it, and will be watching it as soon as it comes in the mail. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/73 "2004-08-06T20:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Time Warner Inc. chairman Dick Parsons Friday described Fox News Channel as “crazy people exchanging views,” telling a group of minority journalists in Washington he felt that the channel and his own Cable News Network are two different services. Source: [http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA443471?display=Breaking+News&referral=SUPP](http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA443471?display=Breaking+News&referral=SUPP) The article is quite short and worth a read. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/74 "2004-08-06T20:40:59Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > If you look at the link on the first page to [mediamatters.org](http://mediamatters.org), you’d see that Fox 'News" carried 90 minutes less than CNN and even less than CSPAN. That has nothing to do with my point. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/75 "2004-08-06T20:43:50Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > I’m wondering if I missed any cites showing liberal bias on networks like CNN. If I did, could someone point the post(s) out to me? Are you seriously interested in hearing them with an open mind, or are you just being rhetorical? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/76 "2004-08-06T20:59:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Are you seriously interested in hearing them with an open mind, or are you just being rhetorical? I am dead serious. (Actually, maybe it should be posted to a new thread-- and linked to from here-- as to help avoid forcing this thread into that tangent.) I appreciate your help, **furt**. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/77 "2004-08-06T21:00:22Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > I’ve listened to Air America Radio. Specifically the O’Franken Factor and the Randi Rhodes Show. They have been critical of democrats at times as harshly as they’ve been critical of some republicans. From which I would infer, not that the folks at Air America are not leftists, but that the Democrats are not nearly as leftist as the Pubbies seem to think. IOW, there is a vast swath of American opinion far to the left of the Democratic Party – but, by comparison, relatively little to the right of the Republican Party. I wonder when Air America will branch out into television? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/78 "2004-08-06T21:04:57Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That has nothing to do with my point. And what has your point morphed into now? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/79 "2004-08-06T21:09:36Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > And what has your point morphed into now? It appears you’re in the dark on what “equal time” means. It means that when a network shows a political event/speech (a convention, State of the Union Address, etc.), they are obligated by law to provide “equal time” to the opposition. For every hour they air of the convention/speech/etc., they have to provide an hour to the other side. I wouldn’t think that networks flood their 11:30p.m.-3:00am airwaves with the opposition, they consider the opposing convention to be the “equal time” opportunity (or so was the question I was asking). Just because Fox News showed less than C-Span doesn’t mean a damn thing - unless when the RNC comes around and they show twice as much as they did of the DNC (and thus don’t provide equal time). Got it now? Seriously, get that knee checked - it’s jerking wildly out of control. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/80 "2004-08-06T21:42:30Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > I am dead serious. > > (Actually, maybe it should be posted to a new thread-- and linked to from here-- as to help avoid forcing this thread into that tangent.) No worries: I’ll just list some cites I’ve come across; open another thread if you want to discuss (though I don’t necessarily). [http://www.thatliberalmedia.com/archives/cat\_cnn.html](http://www.thatliberalmedia.com/archives/cat_cnn.html) [honestreporting.com](http://www.google.com/custom?q=cnn&cof=AH%3Acenter%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.honestreporting.com%3BAWFID%3A21a4c883229cc039%3B&domains=www.honestreporting.com&sitesearch=www.honestreporting.com) Obviously, both these sites themselves have a _conservative_ bias, hence independant thought is required all 'round. I’ll exclude the more strident critics from the fringe, but google on CNN bias and you’ll find hours of right-wing entertainment. FTR my own view is that the nature of a free media market is that there will pretty much inevitably be equilibrium. Most of the TV and print media has an unintentional slightly left-of-center lean, for the reasons [Daniel Okrent](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20B16F93C590C768EDDAE0894DC404482) cited in the New York Times; in balance to that we have several outlets (Fox, talk radio) that are quite explicitly conservative. IMO, if you could multiply the intensity of bias by the number of outlets and their viewer/listenerships, and then adjust for “who watches news shows,” you’d come out even on the right-left scale. Who does get marginalized pretty much are the fringes: the far left (Michael Moore), the far right (Michael Savage) and the Libertarians (Neal Boortz); none of those are going to last very long on TV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559.md?page=5)