# Outfoxed: Why continue to watch when they're clearly partisan and dishonest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559 "2004-08-06T02:25:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/81 "2004-08-06T21:49:01Z")
> [@Jon the Geek](#): > > Um. When I watched, Fox had Newt Gingrich on as their unbiased political commentator. Do you suppose they’ll have Ted Kennedy (or someone equivalent) as their unbiased policital commentator during the RNC? Um…then I suggest that possibly (possibly mind you) that you didn’t see the whole thing? Just perhaps seeing Newt wasn’t the whole show? Or is it your contention that you can extrapolate Fox’s entire DNC coverage from, what? 5 min? In which case I suppose it was 24hrs of Newt. That wasn’t my experience though… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/82 "2004-08-06T21:53:04Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > Aren’t you assuming that anyone at the RNC will give a speech as good as Clinton’s or Obama’s? I’m not saying they won’t, but the amount of praise due to any speech is a dependent variable, not an independent one. Good point. No telling if they will have someone as moving as Obama (personally I got nada from Clintons speech…certainly nothing to gush over). I suppose we’ll see. As with the DNC I’ll be closely following the RNC from the various news outlets to get some perspective. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/83 "2004-08-06T22:37:14Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > It appears you’re in the dark on what “equal time” means. It means that when a network shows a political event/speech (a convention, State of the Union Address, etc.), they are obligated by law to provide “equal time” to the opposition. For every hour they air of the convention/speech/etc., they have to provide an hour to the other side. Wasn’t that law (the “fairness doctrine”) repealed back in the Reagan days? ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/84 "2004-08-07T00:01:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um…then I suggest that possibly (possibly mind you) that you didn’t see the whole thing? Just perhaps seeing Newt wasn’t the whole show? Or is it your contention that you can extrapolate Fox’s entire DNC coverage from, what? 5 min? In which case I suppose it was 24hrs of Newt. That wasn’t my experience though… I TiVoed 2 nights of their coverage to see if I could stand it, and fast-forwarded through to catch glimpses. I saw Newt twice (not immediately in a row), introduced as something like “Fox News political analyst Newt Gingrich”. I (wrongly?) interpreted that to mean he was who Fox was turning to for political analysis of the convention, much as each of the networks has a general that they haul in during wars. If he wasn’t on more than the two times I happened to catch him, I’ll correct my assumption. Still, he was on twice to give his views on the politics of the convention. Will they have someone on the left for the RNC, or will they bring back Newt for political analysis of that convention as well? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/85 "2004-08-07T01:13:00Z")
**BrainGlutton:** > [@](#): > > They have a definite left-progressive bias **(in other words, that of an adult human being with a mind and a conscience),** and make no pretense otherwise. C’mon, don’t spare our feelings, tell us what you _really_ think of conservatives. > [@](#): > > In fact, I wish there were a left-wing TV counterpart to Fox! There are; they’re called CNN, NBC and CBS. **Mockingbird:** > [@](#): > > Is extreme partisanship blinding aspects of both sides? Isn’t that a question you seem eminently capable of answering yourself with just a _little_ introspection? **Rashak Mani:** > [@](#): > > A guy in the IMDB made a good case about FoxNews… they are about market choice. Their choice being right wingers. **These people don’t want a balanced view… they want their view of things reflected on the news they watch.** Call it New Entertainment or Marketing choice… Perhaps. Perhaps we do not care to be characterized as infantile and unconscionable by CNN, NBC and CBS for having different political viewpoints than liberal journalists and editors. **Mockingbird:** > [@](#): > > So, how many of the Fox News fans/defenders SAW Outfoxed. What, I have to pay money for some liberal to tell me how bad FOX is? Guess what: I already did, when I subscribed to the Straight Dope. **Diogenes:** > [@](#): > > What utter fantasy. You should know; you live on the opposite side of the same world. **Steve MB:** > [@](#): > > …left to their own devices, they would gladly enact 99% tax rates on The Rich[tm] to pay for bedroom police, subsidized church schools, etc. Thank you! You said it before I could, and much better besides! It is entirely unfortunate that economic conservativism and classic conservative principles (which I believe Libertarianism is an extreme example thereof) seem to have been indeliby linked with “religious fruitcakes.” **Jon the Geek:** > [@](#): > > Can you please give an example of CNN’s left-wing bias? Sure. When covering the D.C. sniper[s] (after they’d been caught), CNN displayed a weapon “of the same type” used by the sniper. They even showed it in action, at a firing range, firing _fully automatic._ This segued into a report about the Assault Weapons ban, due to sunset this year, and how the ban would help prevent future repeats of the D.C. Sniper[s]. Never mind that the Assault Weapons Ban has absolutely nothing to do with fully automatic weaponry. Or that the rifle the D.C. sniper used was never capable of fully automatic fire, in spite of CNN portraying it thus. Or the fact that the D.C. Sniper[s] could have done equal, if not more damage using a 3-shot (total capacity) bolt-action hunting rifle, commonly available at, say, The Bass Pro Shop, which doesn’t even carry _anything_ resembling an “assault weapon.” I saw this at work in the break room; I immediately grabbed the remote and changed the channel to FOX, and haven’t looked back. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/86 "2004-08-07T02:15:28Z")
Mmm, **ExTank** , there were so many reports with bias (and many of them misleading and with lies) on the gulf war and WMD on FOX, that a sincere man could have turned that remote into mush. As for your contention that CNN, NBC and CBS are left wing: get this into your knowledge base once and for all: This is a matter of opinion, and clearly the opinion of people on the left should count. On the right, many do agree Fox news is their news, or fair and balanced :rolleyes: . OTOH, On the left, many, and specially what I would call the “really left”, look CNN, NBC, CBS, etc. with suspicion. The right knows that they have FOX, while the left is not accepting CNN and others as their own. A leftist can say to a rightist that Fox is biased, the rightist will response it is actually fair and balanced. A rightist will say to a leftist that CNN is biased, but a leftist usually will respond more often that, indeed, it is not fair and balanced… it is leaning more to the right nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/87 "2004-08-07T04:23:51Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Wasn’t that law (the “fairness doctrine”) repealed back in the Reagan days? That would, in fact, go to the very heart of my question. However, it certainly wouldn’t explain the “equal time” segment given to the opposing party after every SOTUS I’ve seen in the last 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Live\_Better\_Electrically](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@Live\_Better\_Electrically](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Live_Better_Electrically)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/88 "2004-08-07T14:24:40Z")
The fact that there are many, many sources claiming that NBC, CNN, CBS are biased one way or the other ( **furt** ’s links etc on the right; FAIR and Eric Alterman’s _What Liberal Media?_ etc on the left) supports the view that they are in the middle. Conservatives will tend to notice only the liberal spin and vice versa. The problem here is that public debate has been pushed so far to the right that the middle is what passes for left in many people’s minds. If you honestly that believe the major network news–the corporate media–is liberal, you need to sharpen your critical thinking skills. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/89 "2004-08-07T23:12:24Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That would, in fact, go to the very heart of my question. However, it certainly wouldn’t explain the “equal time” segment given to the opposing party after every SOTUS I’ve seen in the last 5 years. I don’t watch State of the Union speeches live, so maybe I’m just missing out on something obvious, but I haven’t heard anything about giving equal time to the opposition afterwards. I searched Google but only found references to a Clinton speech where he made a joke about “equal time”, and references to fairness laws earlier in the century. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/90 "2004-08-08T00:51:18Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > So, Fox News showed an hour less than CNN and an 90 minutes less than MSNBC. This may be the first time ever that someone has suggested other cable news channels should emulate MSNBC. I can’t help but note the descending order of convention coverage is inversely related to the ratings of each network. This certainly shows Fox is biased alright – biased in favor of making a lot of advertising revenue. Hell, maybe if they cut out all convention coverage altogether Rupert Murdoch can buy another yacht. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/91 "2004-08-08T01:28:12Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > I don’t watch State of the Union speeches live, so maybe I’m just missing out on something obvious, but I haven’t heard anything about giving equal time to the opposition afterwards. I searched Google but only found references to a Clinton speech where he made a joke about “equal time”, and references to fairness laws earlier in the century. They don’t call it “equal time,” and i don’t knw if the time is really equal, but they always do broadcast what they call a “response” from the opposing party. Try googling on the SOYU + Republican/Democrat response. I’d do it but I’m too lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/92 "2004-08-08T02:18:54Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > This may be the first time ever that someone has suggested other cable news channels should emulate MSNBC. > > I can’t help but note the descending order of convention coverage is inversely related to the ratings of each network. This certainly shows Fox is biased alright – biased in favor of making a lot of advertising revenue. Hell, maybe if they cut out all convention coverage altogether Rupert Murdoch can buy another yacht. Unfortunately for the yacht builders’ guild, CNN [commands higher ad rates](http://www.fair.org/extra/0404/fox-ratings.html) than FNC. > [@](#): > > One of the reasons for CNN’s lead in CPM, according to the buyers, is the advertiser preference for lighter viewers. Such viewers tend to come from the most desirable demographics–younger, busier, more free-spending–and because they’re harder to reach with ads, the law of supply and demand drives their cost up. > > One media buyer we interviewed analyzed the contrast between Fox and CNN in terms of programming and viewing habits, telling Extra!: “CNN is like news radio where people drop in for the news; Fox is like talk radio, where they stay longer for the opinion shows.” > > An ad executive interviewed in Media Week last year (2/10/03) suggested that snob appeal was part of CNN’s edge in the race for ad dollars: “There are two kinds of news advertisers. If you’re talking cold remedies, you’re buying eyeballs. Others are looking for an environment, an image. They’re looking to reach decision-makers and influencers who watch news. If you’re an image-oriented product–a BMW, Mercedes, Lexus–it’s not even a question, you go with CNN. There’s no comparison in the quality of the journalism–CNN is light years ahead in objectivity and reporting–and I don’t think Fox’s ‘New York Post on TV’ approach appeals to the most desirable consumers.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/93 "2004-08-09T02:09:04Z")
Of course, **Mr. 2001** , you snipped out that portion of the article that said both overall revenues and per-ad fees were disputed between the two networks. And FAIR, of course, is hardly an unbiased source. Just sayin’. And if CNN really is designed for people who just tune in briefly to catch up on the news, then they’re not exactly catering to their demographic by having expansive convention coverage. And again: what network executive in their right mind would want to emulate MSNBC? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/94 "2004-08-09T02:59:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, I would expect this would take a bit more refutation than simply your assertion. YMMV. [Mine does.](http://www.ratherbiased.com/compare.htm) Below are just a few links to some things about Rather that seem not to have made the site that you linked us to there. Must have been inadvertant oversights! :rolleyes: [http://www.fair.org/activism/husseini-rather.html](http://www.fair.org/activism/husseini-rather.html) [http://www.fair.org/extra/8910/cbs-afghan.html](http://www.fair.org/extra/8910/cbs-afghan.html) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/audiovideo/programmes/newsnight/1991885.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/audiovideo/programmes/newsnight/1991885.stm) > **[Daveanddan - Welcome to New York Jewish Times Magazine](https://nyjtimes.com/daveanddan/)** > > Note: This transcript is provided as is with no \[…\] ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/95 "2004-08-09T02:59:34Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I suppose **Mockingbird** can name _one_ completely unbiased news source, that all the world will see as a shining example of truth and fairness? One that both of us would agree on? CBC ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/96 "2004-08-09T04:04:04Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Conservatives like Fox News because they actually get to hear conservative stuff on there, as opposed to being completely ignored by other news outlets (unless they are making fun of conservatives, anyway). > > Liberals like CNN because it’s one big bleeding heart fest, 24 hours a day. They watch so they can be reassured that there are others out there who think like them. Nothing wrong with that. Oh, wow! I’d always wondered where this “liberal media” that everyone talks about was hiding. It’s obviously not in Talk Radio, CBS, MSNBC, FOX or ABC. I was beginning to lose hope. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/97 "2004-08-09T04:49:07Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > Oh, wow! I’d always wondered where this “liberal media” that everyone talks about was hiding. It’s obviously not in Talk Radio, CBS, MSNBC, FOX or ABC. I was beginning to lose hope. Well, there is liberal talk radio… it’s just hard to find unless you have Sirius or XM, or live in one of a handful of cities. For now. Clear Channel may be converting more stations to its progressive talk format (Air America + The Ed Schultz Show), since they say it’s been getting “spectacular” ratings in NYC and Portland. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/98 "2004-08-09T12:15:20Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Below are just a few links to some things about Rather that seem not to have made the site that you linked us to there. Must have been inadvertant oversights! :rolleyes: > > [http://www.fair.org/activism/husseini-rather.html](http://www.fair.org/activism/husseini-rather.html) > [http://www.fair.org/extra/8910/cbs-afghan.html](http://www.fair.org/extra/8910/cbs-afghan.html) > [BBC NEWS | Programmes | Newsnight | Archive | Is truth a victim?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/audiovideo/programmes/newsnight/1991885.stm) > [Daveanddan - Welcome to New York Jewish Times Magazine](http://www.nyjtimes.com/cover/terror/DaveandDan.htm) So you believe that links describing Rather as wanting to “go against the current swell of patriotism” and “teach the Pentagon how to run their war” mean that Rather is not liberal? (I grant you that Rather admits in the Letterman interview that he knows nothing about strategy. Not that this stops him from advising the government on strategy, but at least we know up front that he is speaking out on topics for which he is unqualified.) I was also amused to see Rather’s take on Saddam Hussein: > [@](#): > > We now know that Saddam Hussein, we mentioned, you know, if he isn’t connected to this, he’s connected to (m)any other things. He’s part of this “hate America” thing. If Bush had said this, you left-wingers would be screaming “Liar!” at the pitch of your lungs. Thanks for making my point for me again. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/99 "2004-08-09T12:26:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > CBC Don Cherry is the Grand Arbriter of Truth when it comes to hockey, I’ll grant that, but I am a bit more leary of the rest of the CBC lineup… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559/100 "2004-08-12T23:18:45Z")
I just saw _Outfoxed_ last night. Pretty powerful indictment. I hope Murdoch, Ailes, O’Reilly, Hannity, etc., go to see it at some point – just, you know, out of their natural curiosity to get different points of view . . . In fact, I wish there was some way they could be tied to their seats and forced to watch it, _Clockwork Orange_-style.\* 😃 Either way, I wonder what they would say, afterwards, to defend themselves? I didn’t know much about Bill O’Reilly before I saw this movie, and damn! What a nasty piece of work! How did the bastard live this long? \*(Oh, and Saddam Hussein should be forced to watch the _South Park_ movie! 😛 ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outfoxed-why-continue-to-watch-when-theyre-clearly-partisan-and-dishonest/258559.md?page=6)