# outlawing abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2002, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740 "2002-06-12T22:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/61 "2002-06-15T07:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\ ***JThunder** , that may be, but (even with that) more current supreme court rulings have gone to still maintain the woman’s right to choose. \*\* Naturally, but that’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We are, after all, talking about whether abortion _should_ be outlawed – not whether it is _currently_ legal. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/62 "2002-06-15T07:04:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > **And I can not defend the exaggerations and so called falsehoods of the pro-choicers. Only to mention that curiously there is very little info on the number of elective partial birth abortions. It looks like the lie was: saying enfatically that PBA were rare, when in reality there was no reliable data at that time.** No, it’s more than just a lack of data. Ron Fitzsimmons said that he _knew_ that partial-birth abortions were routinely conducted, and he publicly confessed to this. Obviously, this is far different from merely stating that “there was no reliable data at the time.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/63 "2002-06-15T07:51:43Z")
**JThunder** I guess I was not clear enough, but I essentially said the same. The thing that I added (about reliable data) was never said by him. I thought that I was clear; sorry if I allowed some hope that you are right on this subject :). It is clear that he acknowledged his error and he still defends the procedure. I noticed that you ignore that the numbers are indeed few in what matters most in this discussion: if we use a little bit of logic we can conclude that the majority of the PBA are indeed related to health matters (not opposed even by Pro-lifers), the more controversial elective PBA’s are indeed rare. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/64 "2002-06-15T10:15:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*It is clear that he acknowledged his error and he still defends the procedure. > \*\* It was not an error. It was a deliberate falsehood. Fitzsimmons himself admitted to this. Fitzsimmons himself said so. Let’s say it again: It was not a mere error. It was a deliberate lie. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/65 "2002-06-15T10:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\*I noticed that you ignore that the numbers are indeed few in what matters > most in this discussion: if we use a little bit of logic we can conclude > that the majority of the PBA are indeed related to health matters (not > opposed even by Pro-lifers), the more controversial elective PBA’s are > indeed rare. \*\* Once again, that’s not true. Ron Fitzsimmons himself admitted that the majority of these abortions are [performed on healthy babies and healthy mothers](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/keyfactspba.htm). Additionally, the AMA interviewed [Dr. Martin Haskell](http://www.prolifeinfo.org/pba2.html), who said, > [@](#): > > “And I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range. . . . In my particular case, probably 20% [of this procedure] are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective.” In fact, [the AMA has also gone on record as saying](http://www.family.org/cforum/research/papers/a0010626.html), > [@](#): > > “Our panel could not find any identified circumstance in which the procedure was the only safe and effective abortion method.” That statement echoes the stance of C. Everett Koop, who has publicly stated that partial-birth abortions are never necessary to save the mother’s life. In other words, the claim that partial birth abortions are performed mostly for medical reasons is yet another falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/66 "2002-06-15T10:24:11Z")
:sigh: I am not arguing that, I basically agree. But Is beginning to be clear that you do not what to deal with the numbers, or to notice that you are using that lie as a clutch to continue ignoring the information provided; you have not noticed, it seems, that the link on [religiousintolerance.org](http://religiousintolerance.org) is CRITICAL of Fitzsimmons. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/67 "2002-06-15T10:42:47Z")
Getting closer to a contradiction there **JThunder** : It looks that, as it happens many times from the Pro-life reports, some context is removed: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo\_pba1.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm) > [@](#): > > Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop has stated that no competent physician with state-of-the-art skill in the management of high-risk pregnancies needs to perform a D&X. Of course, many physicians lack this level of skill, and so need to resort to the D&X procedure. And, even in the United States, not all women have access to good quality pre-natal care. Many pregnant women first seek medical attention when they are about to deliver. And check the link to see the health reasons why the procedure is performed. And I don’t think someone at AMA ever said it was a safe procedure. they are indeed telling the truth, but the way this is being reported by your sources is misleading. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/68 "2002-06-15T11:18:07Z")
Yet another one: you claim regarding AMA and the panel sounded familiar: > [@](#): > > A committee of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) thoroughly studied D&X procedures in 1996. They reported: “A select panel convened by ACOG could identify no circumstances under which this procedure…would be the only option to save the life or preserve the health of the woman.” They also determined that “an intact D&X, however, may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman, and only the doctor, in consultation with the patient, based upon the woman’s particular circumstances can make this decision.” Checking your link regarding the similar, out of context “fact”, is more suspicious when I noticed that the source is really a quote, from a letter to the editor, in an anti abortion web site. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/69 "2002-06-15T11:19:46Z")
That last quote is also from [religiousintolerance.org](http://religiousintolerance.org) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/70 "2002-06-15T11:48:06Z")
And finally: since you have wrought forth very biased sources, here is mine, regarding Dr. Haskell: [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/debates/secularist/abortion/carrier3.html](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/debates/secularist/abortion/carrier3.html) > [@](#): > > First, the medical community is unanimous in supporting my view that third-trimester pregnancy termination should never be performed electively. The American Medical Association recommends that “abortions not be performed in the third trimester except in cases of serious fetal anomalies incompatible with life,”[1] the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is “opposed to abortions of viable fetuses” (where “the decision of whether or not a fetus is viable must be left to the judgment of the responsible attending physician”),[2] and the Medical Society of New Jersey holds that “abortions should not be performed on fetuses considered viable (about 23 to 24 weeks) unless they have abnormalities incompatible with life or extraordinary circumstances involving maternal health factors.”[3] Doctors who act differently are thus not representative of the medical community as a whole. > > Second, Ms. Roth reports a statement made by Dr. Martin Haskell, the first person “to publicize” the partial-birth procedure, but this is misleading in a number of ways. Besides the fact that he says he has been so consistently misquoted that he no longer speaks to the press,[4] Haskell was more than the first person to publicize the use of the “controversial intact dilation and extraction” procedure. He invented it. Third-trimester abortions were previously (and are still) performed by dismemberment inside the womb followed by extraction, and these are not “partial-birth” abortions (the term “partial birth” usually only refers to Haskell’s procedure, even though he never used the term himself). Haskell’s role in pioneering this technique makes him the nation’s leading expert and teacher of the procedure, as well as its foremost advocate. Thus, any statistics for his practice will not be even remotely representative. His new method, which sparked the “partial-birth” abortion controversy in 1992, is no simple process. Besides being exceptionally expensive (thousands of dollars), it is a three-day inpatient procedure, culminating in the extraction of a living baby and the puncturing of the cranium, which is more painless for the child (death is instantaneous) and safer for the mother (intrauterine dismemberment runs the risk of fetal bones lacerating the womb or vaginal canal). Haskell employs the technique for all abortions after the 16th week, thus “partial-birth” abortion technically has nothing to do with the trimester in which the abortion is performed, and this has led to vast amounts of confusion in journalistic reports (and to misunderstanding of what Haskell has on occasion said). ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/71 "2002-06-15T12:19:47Z")
what about an international perspective? in the UK PBA is NOT PERFORMED. the 1967 abortion act says nothing about whether a foetus is a person or not. it simply says that a woman may have an abortion if 2 doctors are willing to say it is in her best mental and physical interest to do so, or if it is more dangerous foor her to coninue the pregnancy than to have an abortion. as an early abortion is always less dangerous than labour it is this latter part that is used as a sort of intentional lopphole to allow most abortion. in ireland abortion is legal only if the mother 's LIFE (not health, mental or physical) is at risk. not even in cases of foetal abnormality, rape, etc. however irish women have the so-called right to travel…yes folks we can pay to go to england and have an abortion there, thus keeping irish hands clean, out of sight out of mind. an estimated 11 irish women a day travel. thats a lot for a small country. ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/72 "2002-06-15T17:31:31Z")
I had a friend who had a PBA in her 7th month. Had to go to GA to have it done and paid 6k for it. Why? She was white, had gotten pregnant by a black guy and knew her parents would freak. So she lived in denial till the 7th month or so and thought “guess I oughta do something about this.” Normally that would enrage me but that poor girl went through hell afterwards ☹ I don’t have one friend that has had an abortion that didn’t emotionally break down in the months afterwards. Where are these clinics when a girl is suicidal when she realizes her baby is dead? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/73 "2002-06-15T19:24:55Z")
I was 35 when I had mine.(was 8 weeks along) My health was not affected badly in the least. I was out(so it didn’t hurt). I was Not coerced. If anything, i was determined to do it no matter what they said. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/74 "2002-06-15T21:07:18Z")
In reply to WV-Woman: Yes, a fetus is a lump of tissue. So is a baby. So are you, so is you hair, and so are your ovaries. Well, you ovaries are organs, and you’re an organism, but you get the idea. What seperates egg from zygote to fetus to baby? Time. And before you argue potentialities (a fetus will become a baby), remember that so will egg cells, if fertilized and implanted. So, come to that, will raw DNA, if placed in an egg. And no nonsense about natural-ness, either. Anything we humans do is natural, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/75 "2002-06-15T23:00:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*In reply to WV-Woman: Yes, a fetus is a lump of tissue. So is a baby. So are you, so is you hair, and so are your ovaries. \*\* If that is your definition of a “lump of tissue,” then I think it’s rather specious to claim that abortion is justified on the grounds that the unborn is a “lump of tissue.” After all, if we are justified in killing a lump of tissue, and if you believe that adult human beings are mere tissue lumps, then what does that naturally imply? Moreover, I think that definition is simply false. A “lump” denotes a loose aggregation with no particular structure. In contrast, a fetus, a newborn, and an adult human all have very clear and functional structures – including sensory, respiratory, nervoius and circulatory systems, to name a few. Clearly, they are more than just the lumps of which you speak. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/76 "2002-06-15T23:03:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I was 35 when I had mine.(was 8 weeks along) > My health was not affected badly in the least. \*\* Not that you know of. Besides, what does that prove? You can not draw any valid medical conclusions about the safety of abortion in general from a single sample. Just ask any physician or statistician. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/77 "2002-06-16T00:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\* And no nonsense about natural-ness, either. Anything we humans do is natural, by definition. \*\* Err, by what definition? Are you calling Michael Jackson’s (the pop singer) face “natural”? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/78 "2002-06-16T00:07:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*And no nonsense about natural-ness, either. Anything we humans do is natural, by definition. \*\* I see. So if someone dies due to “unnatural causes,” then he or she _wasn’t_ killed by a human being? Similarly, is the Eiffel Tower is a natural structure? After all, it was designed and built by human beings. What about rayon, nylon and polyester? Are these “natural” fibers? It seems to me that your statement is based on presumption, rather than any actual definition of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/79 "2002-06-16T07:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d probably never be able to keep a boyfriend for very long, but unless I could find (and afford) a doctor willing to sterilize me, I’d rather be single than (potentially) dead. Gosh, I’m on the pill and I still get stressed out the day before my period comes. I just don’t think I could enjoy sex anymore while always thinking “this could be the time that kills me.” I know how you feel. NOt only do I use three types of birth control, I also randomly instigate “no intercourse” rules. Husband doesn’t mind too much–he’s terrified of getting pregnant too. Though htis past week there was a small (very minor) pregnancy scare in the pepper household, and I was terrified. For the first time, I really had to think about the pregnancy itself, the childbirth, and the long-term results. I would probably have to drop out of school (if I ws pregnant, the baby would come at the beginning of the Spring term.) I couldn’t afford daycare, and I don’t live near family. I would however have to get a job somehow, and my husband would have ot pick up a second job. But it wasn’t the sacrifices I was scared of. It was the fact that i’d be throwing away my life, all my dreams, everything I ever worked for a child I _didn’t want_. I don’t care if every single person on this board, or in the world, thinks I’m a self-centered, selfish bitch. I’m fully prepared to terminate a pregnancy, because I’m not going to ruin my life because somehow the pill, the condom, and the spermicide failed. I finally understood the full brunt of the issue, it _is_ my body. It’s _my_ life. I’m going to a good school with clear plans, I’m at a place where I’m happy and fairly stable. Sometimes I wonder if people who think so little of women who have abortions have ever stared into a the future and saw doom staring back. That’s not an over-exagertion—my entire life would have been effectively destroyed, as if I took a gun and shot myself in the head. It’s not an easy decision, and sometimes it’s the lesser of the evils. I can’t have anything but pity and empathy for the girls who can’t handle having children–who feel this is their only choice. I’m fortunate because I have a loving husband who will support me no matter what I choose—some girls don’t have anything. I guess there’s the point of this post is that I’ve long argued on the side of pro-choice, and now I finally understand the enormity, the finality, of the arguements I make. I finally understand the “it’s my body, my choice” rhetoric, and I understand the real, honest to God fear. Because I have never been more frightened of anything in my life. If abortion was outlawed, a lot of lives will be destroyed. You may not understand how having a child can be an act of destruction, but I think many of the people who have abortions do, and many people who are pro-choice do too. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2002, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740/80 "2002-06-16T09:40:55Z")
**pepperlandgirl** - I think your post is wonderful, honest, and moving. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-abortion/113740.md?page=5)