Naturally, but that’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We are, after all, talking about whether abortion should be outlawed – not whether it is currently legal.
No, it’s more than just a lack of data. Ron Fitzsimmons said that he knew that partial-birth abortions were routinely conducted, and he publicly confessed to this. Obviously, this is far different from merely stating that “there was no reliable data at the time.”
JThunder I guess I was not clear enough, but I essentially said the same. The thing that I added (about reliable data) was never said by him. I thought that I was clear; sorry if I allowed some hope that you are right on this subject :). It is clear that he acknowledged his error and he still defends the procedure.
I noticed that you ignore that the numbers are indeed few in what matters most in this discussion: if we use a little bit of logic we can conclude that the majority of the PBA are indeed related to health matters (not opposed even by Pro-lifers), the more controversial elective PBA’s are indeed rare.
It was not an error. It was a deliberate falsehood. Fitzsimmons himself admitted to this. Fitzsimmons himself said so.
Let’s say it again: It was not a mere error. It was a deliberate lie.
Once again, that’s not true. Ron Fitzsimmons himself admitted that the majority of these abortions are performed on healthy babies and healthy mothers. Additionally, the AMA interviewed Dr. Martin Haskell, who said,
In fact, the AMA has also gone on record as saying,
That statement echoes the stance of C. Everett Koop, who has publicly stated that partial-birth abortions are never necessary to save the mother’s life.
In other words, the claim that partial birth abortions are performed mostly for medical reasons is yet another falsehood.
:sigh:
I am not arguing that, I basically agree. But Is beginning to be clear that you do not what to deal with the numbers, or to notice that you are using that lie as a clutch to continue ignoring the information provided; you have not noticed, it seems, that the link on religiousintolerance.org is CRITICAL of Fitzsimmons.
Getting closer to a contradiction there JThunder: It looks that, as it happens many times from the Pro-life reports, some context is removed:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm
And check the link to see the health reasons why the procedure is performed. And I don’t think someone at AMA ever said it was a safe procedure. they are indeed telling the truth, but the way this is being reported by your sources is misleading.
Yet another one: you claim regarding AMA and the panel sounded familiar:
Checking your link regarding the similar, out of context “fact”, is more suspicious when I noticed that the source is really a quote, from a letter to the editor, in an anti abortion web site.
That last quote is also from religiousintolerance.org
And finally: since you have wrought forth very biased sources, here is mine, regarding Dr. Haskell:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/debates/secularist/abortion/carrier3.html
what about an international perspective?
in the UK PBA is NOT PERFORMED.
the 1967 abortion act says nothing about whether a foetus is a person or not.
it simply says that a woman may have an abortion if 2 doctors are willing to say it is in her best mental and physical interest to do so, or if it is more dangerous foor her to coninue the pregnancy than to have an abortion.
as an early abortion is always less dangerous than labour it is this latter part that is used as a sort of intentional lopphole to allow most abortion.
in ireland abortion is legal only if the mother 's LIFE (not health, mental or physical) is at risk. not even in cases of foetal abnormality, rape, etc.
however irish women have the so-called right to travel…yes folks we can pay to go to england and have an abortion there, thus keeping irish hands clean, out of sight out of mind.
an estimated 11 irish women a day travel. thats a lot for a small country.
I had a friend who had a PBA in her 7th month. Had to go to GA to have it done and paid 6k for it.
Why? She was white, had gotten pregnant by a black guy and knew her parents would freak. So she lived in denial till the 7th month or so and thought “guess I oughta do something about this.”
Normally that would enrage me but that poor girl went through hell afterwards 
I don’t have one friend that has had an abortion that didn’t emotionally break down in the months afterwards.
Where are these clinics when a girl is suicidal when she realizes her baby is dead?
I was 35 when I had mine.(was 8 weeks along)
My health was not affected badly in the least.
I was out(so it didn’t hurt).
I was Not coerced. If anything, i was determined to do it no matter what they said.
In reply to WV-Woman: Yes, a fetus is a lump of tissue. So is a baby. So are you, so is you hair, and so are your ovaries. Well, you ovaries are organs, and you’re an organism, but you get the idea. What seperates egg from zygote to fetus to baby? Time. And before you argue potentialities (a fetus will become a baby), remember that so will egg cells, if fertilized and implanted. So, come to that, will raw DNA, if placed in an egg. And no nonsense about natural-ness, either. Anything we humans do is natural, by definition.
If that is your definition of a “lump of tissue,” then I think it’s rather specious to claim that abortion is justified on the grounds that the unborn is a “lump of tissue.” After all, if we are justified in killing a lump of tissue, and if you believe that adult human beings are mere tissue lumps, then what does that naturally imply?
Moreover, I think that definition is simply false. A “lump” denotes a loose aggregation with no particular structure. In contrast, a fetus, a newborn, and an adult human all have very clear and functional structures – including sensory, respiratory, nervoius and circulatory systems, to name a few. Clearly, they are more than just the lumps of which you speak.
Not that you know of.
Besides, what does that prove? You can not draw any valid medical conclusions about the safety of abortion in general from a single sample. Just ask any physician or statistician.
Err, by what definition?
Are you calling Michael Jackson’s (the pop singer) face “natural”?
I see. So if someone dies due to “unnatural causes,” then he or she wasn’t killed by a human being? Similarly, is the Eiffel Tower is a natural structure? After all, it was designed and built by human beings. What about rayon, nylon and polyester? Are these “natural” fibers?
It seems to me that your statement is based on presumption, rather than any actual definition of humanity.
I know how you feel. NOt only do I use three types of birth control, I also randomly instigate “no intercourse” rules. Husband doesn’t mind too much–he’s terrified of getting pregnant too.
Though htis past week there was a small (very minor) pregnancy scare in the pepper household, and I was terrified. For the first time, I really had to think about the pregnancy itself, the childbirth, and the long-term results. I would probably have to drop out of school (if I ws pregnant, the baby would come at the beginning of the Spring term.) I couldn’t afford daycare, and I don’t live near family. I would however have to get a job somehow, and my husband would have ot pick up a second job. But it wasn’t the sacrifices I was scared of. It was the fact that i’d be throwing away my life, all my dreams, everything I ever worked for a child I didn’t want.
I don’t care if every single person on this board, or in the world, thinks I’m a self-centered, selfish bitch. I’m fully prepared to terminate a pregnancy, because I’m not going to ruin my life because somehow the pill, the condom, and the spermicide failed. I finally understood the full brunt of the issue, it is my body. It’s my life. I’m going to a good school with clear plans, I’m at a place where I’m happy and fairly stable.
Sometimes I wonder if people who think so little of women who have abortions have ever stared into a the future and saw doom staring back. That’s not an over-exagertion—my entire life would have been effectively destroyed, as if I took a gun and shot myself in the head. It’s not an easy decision, and sometimes it’s the lesser of the evils. I can’t have anything but pity and empathy for the girls who can’t handle having children–who feel this is their only choice. I’m fortunate because I have a loving husband who will support me no matter what I choose—some girls don’t have anything.
I guess there’s the point of this post is that I’ve long argued on the side of pro-choice, and now I finally understand the enormity, the finality, of the arguements I make. I finally understand the “it’s my body, my choice” rhetoric, and I understand the real, honest to God fear. Because I have never been more frightened of anything in my life.
If abortion was outlawed, a lot of lives will be destroyed. You may not understand how having a child can be an act of destruction, but I think many of the people who have abortions do, and many people who are pro-choice do too.
pepperlandgirl - I think your post is wonderful, honest, and moving.