# Outlawing dog breeds **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 30, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608 "2024-03-30T16:46:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/41 "2024-03-30T22:46:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure they do. If someone is breeding defective poodles, then you declare that that breeder’s dogs don’t meet the breed standard and thus aren’t officially poodles. All that does is prevent someone from showing those dogs in an AKC-officiated competition. There is literally nothing that prevents you from taking some random dog and selling it as “Skipper-Poodle” , and nothing that the AKC can do unless it is being sold with fraudulent AKC registry papers. (Most puppy mills don’t even offer AKC registry anyway.) And frankly, if a dog meets the published AKC breed standard from AKC-registered parents, they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on in a legal challenge even if the animal is ‘defective’ in some way not described by the standard. That the organization has been hijacked by unethical breeders is another issue, but again, it is a consequence of the public appetite for faddish breeds and a complete lack understanding for how to select, socialize, train, and care for a dog. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/42 "2024-03-30T22:50:43Z")
Yes. Nothing to stop selling/ buying unpapered dogs. In fact I bet that’s the vast majority of the situation with dogs purchased. Doodle-dogs have no papers. They are mixed breed. I read somewhere AKC and UKC is looking into the Labradoodle soon being a papered breed. Seems there’s many generations enough to make it possible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/43 "2024-03-31T01:34:39Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > That’s a bit overstated. The AKC has done much to make the world of dogs better. > Expressing need to have vet checks often, vaccines regularly and spay or neuter pets. They clearly love dogs. Yes, that’s the good. They arent all bad. But then mutilations like tail and ear docking. Not to mention some of their standards lead to unhealthy dogs. Like pugs who cant breathe. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > You’re being too kind to the AKC, they are a big part of the problem. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/sports/many-animal-lovers-now-see-american-kennel-club-as-an-outlier.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/sports/many-animal-lovers-now-see-american-kennel-club-as-an-outlier.html) Yes, sadly. From your cite- _These included several humane pet store bills that would have stopped the sale of puppy mill puppies in pet stores, and bills that would help facilitate intervention to seize dogs in suspected animal cruelty situations. In addition, the AKC opposed:_ \*\* A bill in New York to prohibit debarking of dogs.\* \*\* A bill in Virginia that would require dogs to have continual access to water.\* \*\* A regulatory proposal in Oklahoma to allow the state’s department of agriculture to seize dogs from commercial breeders if it has reason to believe the health, safety or welfare of the animal is endangered.\* \*\* An ordinance in Knoxville, Tennessee, that would require owners to give dogs access to adequate exercise space, among other things.\* \*\* A bill on animal fighting in Georgia that would make it an offense to “possess, purchase, or sell ‘fighting related objects.’”\* _The AKC even expressed concerns over a bill in Connecticut to prevent the sexual abuse of animals, claiming that it could interfere with their breeders’ artificial insemination practices._ > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > While it is tempting to single out the AKC as the cause of congenital health problems and poor genetics in dog breeds, the reality is that it is just a manifestation of the general problem of breeding dogs for ‘show’ characteristics (i.e. appearance) Well, yes, but some of the AKC standards are just plain wrong. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Unfortunately, these are also breeds that often have strong drives which owners need to exercise and accommodate, and so many people get a handsome looking bred like a Belgian Malinois assuming that it is just a bolder kind of German Shepherd and don’t appreciate that they have an animal that can destroy a large piece of furniture in minutes and outwit a typical member of Mensa when it comes to escaping or getting their way unless they are adequately trained and socialized. Huskies are cute, and good pets- but they could escape from Colditz. And they get bored. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/44 "2024-03-31T01:58:37Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > While it is tempting to single out the AKC as the cause of congenital health problems and poor genetics in dog breeds, the reality is that it is just a manifestation of the general problem of breeding dogs for ‘show’ characteristics (i.e. appearance) and the general rise of ‘companion’ animals that exist as accessories for people who have no business owning a dog. (Dogs bred and ‘trained’ for pit fighting or as attack dogs are obviously an abuse, and people who do this shouldn’t be allowed to own any dog.) Actual working breeds tend to have far fewer health issues (except for size related problems for the giant breeds) just because it is too expensive to invest all of the time and effort into training a working dog to perform tasks and be adequately socialized and because they are generally bred for some combination of intelligence, obedience, and innate drive. This is spot on, and not confined to dogs. Conformation shows for horses, pursuing an ever more extreme incarnation of the breed standard, has led to such abominations as [Quarter Horses](https://hoovesblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/the-top-secret-nov-2007.jpg) (and this ain’t the most extremre I’ve seen proudly advertised at stud!) with baby doll heads on pencil necks, side-of-beef bodies, hind legs with almost no angulation at the hocks, and tiny hooves, for example. In-hand [Arabians](https://64.media.tumblr.com/ad241e13431bc242cb4c41c3e2401593/tumblr_inline_okmbnqM2Ju1sodq3u_1280.jpg) are being bred to have such an extreme “dish” profile that it affects their breathing. And so on. If you want a well-built healthy QH, Arabian, for just two examples, you have to look for breeders focused on working bloodlines, like producers of ranch horses. In the extreme dog breeds, a number of the brachycephalic types can’t even whelp naturally and need C-sections. German shepherds used to have conformation similar to Malinois; the extreme forms now have [such a sloping back to such crouched hindquarters](https://www.thesprucepets.com/thmb/v75hCSi7-4Rl3lOnQLWr6h-UTpI=/750x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/breed_profile_germansheperd_1118000_profile_2608-d7a78e7c1cf049879bec1ec19113ee42.jpg) it’s a wonder they can move at all. Until the shows stop awarding best in breed to the unhealthy extremes, and that’s what sells for breeders, in dogs, horses, cats (compare the Persians and Siamese of a century ago to what they look like now), it will only get worse. /rant ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/45 "2024-03-31T02:02:58Z")
Oh. That’s cromulent info. I gotta look into it further, it seems. If it turns out to not be scary online misinformation. And if I can figure out it’s true. I’ll believe it. IF. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/46 "2024-03-31T02:12:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But then mutilations like tail and ear docking. Which are now banned in the UK and most of Europe, have been for years. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/47 "2024-03-31T02:21:28Z")
I hate docking stuff. It’s just so awful to remove a healthy body part. My obviously mixed breed Bayliss came here with things chopped off. I tell him every night to remember it wasn’t me who had it done. Veterinarians should refuse to do it. I assume they do it to keep folks from doing home surgery. It makes me sick. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/48 "2024-03-31T02:47:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’d rather the AKC be more aggressive in judging breeds for their health rather than looks and ban breeds that have gone too far. It’s not realized in threads like this how weak the AKC is. They no longer publish the number of registered dogs because that number is so sharply declining. If they kicked out their newly most popular breed, the French Bulldog, it wouldn’t kill the breed club or stop people from buying them. For all we know, the really most popular breeds are so-called mixes like the Cockapoo, even though they are really almost always the product of two dogs of the same mix, and thus purebred. In some of the breeds, inbreeding is greatly reduced, over the past few decades, due to breeder emphasis on health. Our Sheltie, from a show breeder, has no pedigree repeats going back six generations. He might be less inbred than most people! But the AKC doesn’t have the power to force that. I could say that buyer education would help, but there are so few responsible breeders left, for many of the breeds, that it is hard to be a fussy buyer. And there’s no way to overcome the romance of the word rescue. The way things are going, a lot of the breeds will go extinct. Re the thread question, I have no moral issue with outlawing. But it isn’t practical. There’s no way to be sure what breed a dog is, or who was the dam and sire. Legal pressure on the breeders would, at least in the U.S., lead to dishonesty. Maybe it will work in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/49 "2024-03-31T03:09:21Z")
There has been a definite trend toward unhealthy traits in my lifetime. My Dad stopped breeding GSDs in the late 90’s, because judges were insisting upon the deep rear squat, which is now destroying the GSD hips. He was also breeding a champion English Bulldog though, one of the breeds that are now often born by c-section, because the head:hip ratio is so out of whack. Kennel clubs all over the world have been working together to update breed standards to healthier levels. Shorter backs for dachshunds (it’s not the short legs, it’s the long backs that lead to painful deformities) lighter squats for GSDs, and discernible snouts for the brachies (brachycephalic - flat faced). Just a few weeks ago at Crufts, the judges ignored the new standard and awarded a dog with an almost completely flat face. Brachy canines have trouble breathing, eating, and digesting their food (reflux). It’s a terrible thing to do to a breed, and they live shortened lives because of it. So the Clubs all changed the Standard to require a small snout. Then this happened:[‘No discernible nostrils’: Crufts in row over prizes for French bulldog | Crufts | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/08/no-discernible-nostrils-crufts-in-row-over-prizes-for-french-bulldog) Does it affect the pet market? Yes, but over a longer span of time. Take “Toki” my high school pet. One of her daughters won Select Female at Westminster. But she had 18 other pups, all of whom were pet quality. Did they wind up in puppy mills? Heck No! We made sure of their homes and visited at six months to confirm all was well. But they were all registered and many probably went on to give birth to pet level dogs and bitches. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Toki has 500 descendants by now. tl:dr the AKC and other clubs are trying to push for healthier traits. But until the judges get on board, we won’t get very far. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/50 "2024-03-31T03:16:32Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I hate docking stuff. It’s just so awful to remove a healthy body part. It started with good reasons. Long brittle tails break painfully, and over-folded ears get infected a lot and can’t hear as well. But like all things, it became a fashion, and then was taken to the extreme. Just like the extreme poodle grooming. They were bred as water retrievers. Their hair grows too long though and would weigh them down in the water. So the best thing was to cut it short over most of the body, leaving a poof of hair over the major muscles groups to keep them warm in the field. Then the fashions took over an muddled it. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/51 "2024-03-31T03:21:40Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > In some of the breeds, inbreeding is greatly reduced, over the past few decades, due to breeder emphasis on health. Our Sheltie, from a show breeder, has no pedigree repeats going back six generations. This is precisely the point of “papers” for a registered canine. To be able to show that the brood bitch and sire shared no ancestors for at least three generations. But the vast majority of buyers have no idea. We always has to explain the importance of it. Responsible breeders don’t inbreed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/52 "2024-03-31T03:32:56Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Which are now banned in the UK and most of Europe, have been for years. But sadly are common here in the USA, [https://www.akc.org/press-releases/akc-statement-on-avma-crop-and-dock-policy/#:~:text=AKC’s%20policy%20on%20the%20issue,and%2For%20enhancing%20good%20health](https://www.akc.org/press-releases/akc-statement-on-avma-crop-and-dock-policy/#:~:text=AKC's%20policy%20on%20the%20issue,and%2For%20enhancing%20good%20health). _The American Kennel Club recognizes that ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal, as described in certain breed standards, are acceptable practices integral to defining and preserving breed character and/or enhancing good health._ Tell me dudes- how does cutting a dogs tail off 'enhance good health"? > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I hate docking stuff. It’s just so awful to remove a healthy body part. > > My obviously mixed breed Bayliss came here with things chopped off. I tell him every night to remember it wasn’t me who had it done. > > Veterinarians should refuse to do it. Good, I concur. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/53 "2024-03-31T03:44:46Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > My Dad stopped breeding GSDs in the late 90’s, because judges were insisting upon the deep rear squat, which is now destroying the GSD hips. This is one i didn’t get at all. When i was a kid, German shepherds had perfectly normal looking hips. My sister’s latest rescue had such weird sloping hips that i asked her if the dog had a deformity. And, she kinda does, except people explicitly bred for that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Tell me dudes- how does cutting a dogs tail off 'enhance good health"? Well, if they were bred to have a fragile tail, i suppose it could. We went back and forth on docking the tail of one of our cats, because it had been damaged and the vet was afraid he wouldn’t be able to groom it and it would get infected. But we tried “watchful waiting”, and eventually the vet gave him the “all clear”, so we didn’t have to. I actually thought that the dogs that usually have their tails docked had issues with their tails, but I’m happy to learn I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/54 "2024-03-31T04:02:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, if they were bred to have a fragile tail, i suppose it could. Well, maybe, but here- [https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-welfare/canine-tail-docking-faq#:~:text=A%3A%20Tail%20docking%20of%20some,of%20pet%20dogs%20is%20unnecessary](https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-welfare/canine-tail-docking-faq#:~:text=A%3A%20Tail%20docking%20of%20some,of%20pet%20dogs%20is%20unnecessary). **A:** _Tail docking of some breeds may be based on a belief that their non-working members experience risks similar to working dogs; more commonly, however, it is to conform to a distinctive breed appearance or standard. Survey data indicate that preventive tail docking of pet dogs is unnecessary._ ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/55 "2024-03-31T04:05:40Z")
I read Dalmatians were originally docked because they were carriage dogs and it was feared the tail would get caught. Fell out of favor when they became fashionable ladies dogs. My Rat Terrier was born with a stubby tail. She had one planned litter. 4 puppies. 2 short tails, 2 long tails (well longer than a stub). Even the Vet said dock 'em at the Mom and Puppy visit. I said “ummm…nope” They were just as treasured as I knew they would be as longer tailed Rattys. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/56 "2024-03-31T04:29:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Tell me dudes- how does cutting a dogs tail off 'enhance good health"? The docking of long tails in non-spitz working dogs (and especially guard or fighting dogs) is done to prevent injury to a mature dog (although I doubt a dog is going to attack another dog’s tail and good luck to anyone who would grab a Doberman by its undocked tail). However, there is no evidence of necessity in sporting dogs, and of course no justification whatsoever when done purely for aesthetics. Note that some dogs like Australian Shepherds have naturally shortened or ‘bobbed’ tails. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/57 "2024-03-31T04:39:04Z")
The Border Collie community actively fought against AKC registration, for fear that the breed’s intelligence and working ability would be damaged by conformation competitions. They eventually did get into the AKC, but there has been a lot of controversy. A Border Collie has always been defined by its working ability, not any sort of conformation. We have had Border Collies that weighed 55 lbs, and others that weighed 25. One of our dogs was very tall, with spindly legs. Two of them were from New Zealand, and they are fairly short, stout dogs. The tall one was from British sheepherding stock. But they are all border collies. Three of them were AKC registered with excellent pedigrees, but we didn’t care about that. We cared about their parents and how they performed athletically and temperamentally. We looked for agility/herding champions, not conformance. [http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/politics/AKC/](http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/politics/AKC/) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/58 "2024-03-31T05:38:04Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > This is an ongoing cycle going at least back to the 70s when German Shepherds were over-bred so badly. The Golden Retrievers in the 90s I think. Probably a lot more breeds I’m not aware of. Some other breeds that had been overbred in recent decades included the cocker spaniel (high-strung personalities and health issues became common) and Irish setters (health issues, and at least anedotally, became known for being stupid). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/59 "2024-03-31T07:56:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Tell me dudes- how does cutting a dogs tail off 'enhance good health"? It “enhances” health after an animal line has been bred to have defective or non-functional body parts. But I suspect more often it’s to conform to “fashion” ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608/60 "2024-03-31T08:21:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It “enhances” health after an animal line has been bred to have defective or non-functional body parts. For hunting dogs it made sense to prevent common injuries that might occur in the field far from help. No one likes to see a poor dog having to walk a long distance home in pain. So if a breed had a long fragile tail, they docked it. > [@Broomstick](#): > > But I suspect more often it’s to conform to “fashion” Sadly, this is mostly the reason it happens now. And these poor dogs who are bred for intelligence, energy, and prey drive become unhappy and ill-behaved house dogs. 🤬 I will admit though, it was kind of a PITA when our German Shepherd swept the coffee table with her tail and everything went flying. LOL! Dang, she was the BEST dog! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-dog-breeds/999608.md?page=4)