# Outlawing Synthetic Marijuana **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758 "2010-07-15T08:18:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/1 "2010-07-15T08:18:24Z")
Is it possible to outlaw a substance if you don’t know what it is? Herbal incense, a.k.a. Spice, K2 are all the rage, mostly because you can buy it anywhere and it doesn’t show up on drug tests. In the few states that have outlawed this stuff, how do they prove you are in possession of a controlled substance, other than a judge asking the bailiff to smoke the evidence and report back? Recent NYT article: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/us/11k2.html?ref=marijuana](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/us/11k2.html?ref=marijuana) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/2 "2010-07-15T08:42:53Z")
Edit: Sorry, misread a cite. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/3 "2010-07-15T11:38:41Z")
In my state, police agencies use the State Patrol crime lab. There is one large lab in north Seattle and 6 remote labs scattered throughout the state. Besides verifying drugs and other illegal substances, they also do forensic and ballistic testing. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/4 "2010-07-15T16:24:06Z")
It seems that it’s possible if you [define the substance.](http://www.stltoday.com/news/state-and-regional/missouri/article_e1ccc4ca-cdfa-5573-84a5-9cc71f231045.html) If you look at the [full text of the law](http://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills101/biltxt/intro/HB1670I.htm) you’ll see dozens and dozens of substances specifically named (and which, I suppose, can be tested for in a crime lab.) As for the cops, they arrest you on suspicion of possession of a controlled substance. Then they send it to a lab to be analyzed. If the analysis is negative, they drop the charge. If it’s positive, then they drop the “suspicion” part. ---
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/5 "2010-07-15T20:30:14Z")
There is no way to test the product or the urine at this time. Maybe by the end of the year, but not today. [http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/jackalope/2010/06/jwh\_drug\_tests\_coming\_soon.php](http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/jackalope/2010/06/jwh_drug_tests_coming_soon.php) How do you prove guilt sans evidence? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/6 "2010-07-15T23:01:08Z")
I do begin to wonder if the war on drugs is entering a new phase. It is not as if these THC simulates have been unknown until now. They have been known for decades, but the impetus to market them has not been terribly high compared to the cost of making them. On the other hand, the cost of making them and the knowledge to do so is becoming a lower barrier while the fear of employer drug testing is getting higher. Marijuana is more difficult to get than it used to be in some places. Dogs aren’t trained to sniff for these drugs, and it is unlikely they could keep up with constantly changing substances. We aren’t ther yet, but we aren’t that far. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/7 "2010-07-16T00:08:34Z")
There was a story about this stuff in the local paper today. Apparently it’s fairly new to the area, and already the usual suspects are rallying the troops to ban it. At the moment, it is perfectly legal to buy/sell/possess in my state, according to the local paper. I’m kinda curious…is this stuff any good? How does it compare to the real thing? The paper says it costs about $10, but didn’t say for what amount, or how much is consumed per use… ---
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/8 "2010-07-16T01:57:08Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > There was a story about this stuff in the local paper today. Apparently it’s fairly new to the area, and already the usual suspects are rallying the troops to ban it. At the moment, it is perfectly legal to buy/sell/possess in my state, according to the local paper. > > I’m kinda curious…is this stuff any good? How does it compare to the real thing? The paper says it costs about $10, but didn’t say for what amount, or how much is consumed per use… I know we’re off topic, but…it depends on who you ask. Out of curiosity, I tried it and got a pot high that lasted three hours off of two tokes. I didn’t like that my heart rate went up about 20 beats, and the second time I tried it, the same thing happened. The going price around here (where it is perfectly legal) is $50 for three grams. It is getting so popular that the price of MJ is going down, but MJ is out of the question due to work constraints. Retailers are making money hand over fist, and I don’t hear the county complaining about all the sales tax this is generating. I’d still like to know if there has ever been a successful prosecution in the US, and if so, how. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/9 "2010-07-16T02:10:32Z")
If there hasn’t already been one, I suspect my state will produce one eventually. The paper says there’s a push to ban it at the city level before school starts again. Really, all they need to do is define the substance, pass a ban, and prove possession of the defined substance to convict. The defining part may be a little tricky. ---
**Author:** ![E72521](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@E72521](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E72521)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/10 "2010-07-16T02:45:59Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If there hasn’t already been one, I suspect my state will produce one eventually. The paper says there’s a push to ban it at the city level before school starts again. Really, all they need to do is define the substance, pass a ban, and prove possession of the defined substance to convict. The defining part may be a little tricky. I’m sure they will, as soon as a test is invented. Is your city banning incense, or incense sprayed with synthetic cannabinoids? How can they prove it’s tainted, with no test? I don’t see how a ban can be enforced. Someone will slightly alter the chemical and spray it on cloves or something. Back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/11 "2010-07-16T03:06:52Z")
There is no telling what the city council will do. Or what the county will do. I suspect that they’d be more likely to just ban synthetic cannabinoids, possibly by chemical description…possibly some other way. If the churches get behind it, we might see something at the state level early next year. The state would probably do whatever some other state has done that worked, or at least hasn’t been stricken by too many courts yet. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/12 "2010-07-16T03:19:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m kinda curious…is this stuff any good? How does it compare to the real thing? The paper says it costs about $10, but didn’t say for what amount, or how much is consumed per use… A little birdie told me it’s pretty similar to marijuana, but not identical. It supposedly tends to have more body effects, making you feel physically sluggish or heavy. Fast heart rate seems common, but less so at mild doses. It has a slightly more “chemical” effect in that the effects are very consistent and you can very much notice them coming on, whereas pot’s usually a little more subtle when it hits you. It also sometimes has a hangover effect the next day, although this mostly seems to happen if one overdoes it. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/13 "2010-07-16T10:25:13Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > As for the cops, they arrest you on suspicion of possession of a controlled substance. Then they send it to a lab to be analyzed. If the analysis is negative, they drop the charge. Or they charge you with _possession of a counterfeit controlled substance_. Possibly adding the _with intent to deliver_ enhancement. Many states have laws on the book that make this a crime too, often similar in penalty to the real drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/14 "2010-07-16T21:20:46Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The paper says it costs about $10, but didn’t say for what amount, or how much is consumed per use… That’s $10 per gram, from which may be good for roughly ten smokes. Typically the herbal mixes’ll have 20-30 mg of [JWH-018](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018), or similar, per gram of leaves. The retail cost of the chemical ranges from $45 per gram, to $1300 per kilogram. That puts the cost per dose down at less than a nickel, vs a buck or so retail. People are raking in cash on this stuff! ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/15 "2010-07-18T02:55:40Z")
Tennessee has already banned it, effective July 1st. It’s now a class A misdemeanor to purchase it or sell it. I’ve tried it. Didn’t like it at all and I don’t even know why they call it synthetic marijuana. It didn’t give me the same buzz at all. My daughter’s boyfriend had really bad palpitations on it. It’s ridiculous what we people will do to get high. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/16 "2010-07-19T05:52:22Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I’ve tried it. Didn’t like it at all and I don’t even know why they call it synthetic marijuana. It didn’t give me the same buzz at all. My daughter’s boyfriend had really bad palpitations on it. It’s ridiculous what we people will do to get high. Well, have to do since the natural stuff is illegal. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spit)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/17 "2010-07-19T16:58:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m kinda curious…is this stuff any good? How does it compare to the real thing? The paper says it costs about $10, but didn’t say for what amount, or how much is consumed per use… I have a friend/brother/coworker/anyone other than myself who travels a lot for work, and found a novel way to make rolling papers infused with JWH-18 for his cigarettes that could be smoked anywhere without anyone the wiser. These relax him while on the plane. Imagine if you toked up, and got all of the sluggish/sleepy/rapid thoughts/balance/blurry eyes effects without any of the laughter, munchies, or creativity. Also, you do not get the anti-nausea effect, which coupled with the former effects of balance, can make you queasy pretty quickly. Does it work? Yes. Is it something I would want to use while enjoying a sunset with the Wife? No. However, for a 12 hour flight to Japan (Did I mention those papers could be ingested as well?), it is great! ---
**Author:** ![RavenLunatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@RavenLunatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RavenLunatic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/18 "2010-12-24T19:12:24Z")
As I wrote elsewhere, I’ve been trying it casually for about a month without any negative effects. I’m in the job hunt, so I’m staying away from the real stuff. What I’ve tried is strong, so I can see how if someone tried to smoke a whole fatty of this it would cause adverse effects. You have to start slow, a little at a time, until you find you comfort zone. I’ve been getting a great deal on “[Gonzo K-250](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004GZ9HCM)” on [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com). Seven grams for about $24 with free shipping. It’s medium-strong with 17.86mg/1g ratio of JWH-250 to damiama. It’s very consistent with no “hot spots.” JWH-250 is not one of the five synthetic cannabinoids banned by the DEA this week. I did try JWH-018 a few weeks ago while it was legal. I like the 250 better. Nice euphoric buzz, but like them all, it only lasts a couple hours. No after-effects. ---
**Author:** ![kun11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/91b2a8/32.png) [@kun11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kun11)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outlawing-synthetic-marijuana/546758/19 "2010-12-25T16:18:56Z")
So I guess the big question is: Where could my friend/brother/coworker find some if he were looking to make a purchase? I’m sure his local dealer isn’t carrying any.