# "Outside Space and Time"-where and when, again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402 "2009-04-26T14:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/1 "2009-04-26T14:17:43Z")
In another thread someone(it doesn’t matter who-the term is used many times by many people) said “God exists outside Space and Time” as if this was all the explanation necessary for those trying to find evidence of that being. Is this a valid explanation? What does “outside space” mean, and where is it? What does “outside time” mean, and when is it(not looking for discussion on the nature of time before the universe existed-the claim is that God is in a constant state of existing outside time)? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/2 "2009-04-26T14:34:24Z")
It means you can’t find any evidence of God, no matter how hard you look. And if you can’t find any evidence, then that ‘proves’ God exists out of time and space. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/3 "2009-04-26T14:43:50Z")
Outside time and space would be in a place where time and space doesn’t exist. Eternity, technically, is outside time because there’s always going to be the existence of a now. 100 years from now… 1,000 years… 10 million years from now… it will be now. Now is the only thing that will ever exist. The past is gone the future isn’t here, it is always now… so when speaking of eternity, time doesn’t apply. Infinity would be outside of space. Infinity has no space. Infinity has no boundaries. It will always have room for more. Infinity is the absence of space. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/4 "2009-04-26T15:01:13Z")
I like the thread title 😃 Here’s why I asked in the other thread. I never understood that phrase about God either but assumed we probably couldn’t understand it because of our space time perspective. The Book of Mormon says the course of God is one eternal round and that was a simple concept I could grasp. No beginning, no end. We can grasp the concept of the earth being roundish rather than flat but we can’t see it. The earth disappears at the horizon and we still don’t physically perceive the curve of the earth. The only ones who have are those few who have left the earth and viewed it from space. That’s where I put the outside time and space question. I understand the words in the phrase but I really can’t perceive it from where and when I am although I’ve had moments that were close. {or so I thought at the time} Once a roommate of mine who was writing his doctoral thesis in physics made a breakthrough and tried to explain it to me. Admittedly over my head but basically, A black hole expands at a certain rate. In his theory and figuring as it expanded the force also caused it to curve downward until at some point it connected with itself and made a continuous connected self sustaining force. If God is beyond time and space I see it something like that. We from our perspective measure time and space but those things don’t matter or even exist in the round of connected self sustaining force. What matters and what affects us and those around us the energy we put into play. {energy for lack of a better term} ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/5 "2009-04-26T15:21:31Z")
> [@glee](#): > > It means you can’t find any evidence of God, no matter how hard you look. > And if you can’t find any evidence, then that ‘proves’ God exists out of time and space. 😕 I suppose it also depends on how you define “God”. The question is really if there is some higher level of reality that our current perception of time and space resides within. Wikipedia has some interesting entries on the concept of [multiverses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse). Of course the big criticism is that without any empiracle evidence, most of these theories are just interesting products of physics equations. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/6 "2009-04-26T15:42:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I suppose it also depends on how you define “God”. > > The question is really if there is some higher level of reality that our current perception of time and space resides within. Wikipedia has some interesting entries on the concept of [multiverses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse). Of course the big criticism is that without any empiracle evidence, most of these theories are just interesting products of physics equations. But surely we can accept the possibility of things far beyond our current scope of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/7 "2009-04-26T15:56:59Z")
well, space and time are aspects of our universe. They came to being at the big bang and don’t have any meaning beyond our universe. If there really is a God who created the universe, then God must have created space and time as well. So at some point you have God, but not space and time. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/8 "2009-04-26T16:09:30Z")
I am not arguing for the existence of God. I’m taking a shot at explaining the statement. A creator, but the very nature of creation, has to be outside the system it is creating. If a system doesn’t exist, there must be a “place” outside of it where _something_ resides before it creates it. There was no time before creation, so God exists before time. This is why we could never prove the existence of God. Can you imagine if our little Sims guys possessed the ability to think and reason - by what means could they step outside their little program and find proof of the programmer? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/9 "2009-04-26T16:09:41Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > well, space and time are aspects of our universe. They came to being at the big bang and don’t have any meaning beyond our universe. If there really is a God who created the universe, then God must have created space and time as well. So at some point you have God, but not space and time. I’d say they don’t have any use beyond how we have come to measure our universe. So, I don’t follow your thinking. I don’t think it follows that God created space and time because it seems to me they are our intellectual concepts useful in measuring. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/10 "2009-04-26T16:20:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > But surely we can accept the possibility of things far beyond our current scope of knowledge. Yes, but we don’t point to things far beyond our current scope of knowledge as reasonable explanations for scientific questions. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/11 "2009-04-26T16:20:27Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’d say they don’t have any use beyond how we have come to measure our universe. So, I don’t follow your thinking. I don’t think it follows that God created space and time because it seems to me they are our intellectual concepts useful in measuring. Are you saying that space and time are some arbitrary things we’ve dreamed up? Different observers may measure space and time intervals differently, but they’ll all agree that there’s one time dimension and three spatial dimensions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/12 "2009-04-26T16:22:38Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > I am not arguing for the existence of God. I’m taking a shot at explaining the statement. > > A creator, but the very nature of creation, has to be outside the system it is creating. > > If a system doesn’t exist, there must be a “place” outside of it where _something_ resides before it creates it. > > There was no time before creation, so God exists before time. > > This is why we could never prove the existence of God. Can you imagine if our little Sims guys possessed the ability to think and reason - by what means could they step outside their little program and find proof of the programmer? If, on the other hand, we have no evidence to believe that there _is_ an “outside space and time”, can this be used as evidence that there is no “Creator” to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/13 "2009-04-26T16:25:35Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > well, space and time are aspects of our universe. They came to being at the big bang and don’t have any meaning beyond our universe. If there really is a God who created the universe, then God must have created space and time as well. So at some point you have God, but not space and time. Again, not pertinent to the conversation. This is a discussion about the where-and-whenabouts of God _now_, not his place and time of residence before he supposedly rolled the cosmic dice. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/14 "2009-04-26T16:40:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, but we don’t point to things far beyond our current scope of knowledge as reasonable explanations for scientific questions. I’d agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/15 "2009-04-26T16:44:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In another thread someone(it doesn’t matter who-the term is used many times by many people) said “God exists outside Space and Time” as if this was all the explanation necessary for those trying to find evidence of that being. > Is this a valid explanation? What does “outside space” mean, and where is it? What does “outside time” mean, and when is it(not looking for discussion on the nature of time before the universe existed-the claim is that God is in a constant state of existing outside time)? I’ve seen a similar formulation used with regards to the laws of physics, to assert that they are not “of” the universe (spacetime) but rather simply “are”. I don’t happen to agree, but I understand the formulation. ETA: For both God and the laws of physics, the implication of such a formulation is that these may be manifest in the universe but that they are not (“merely”) part of it. For instance are the laws of physics “universal truths” or merely “truths in ‘OUR’ universe”, originating along with everything else in the big bang? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/16 "2009-04-26T16:49:59Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’ve seen a similar formulation used with regards to the laws of physics, to assert that they are not “of” the universe (spacetime) but rather simply “are”. > > I don’t happen to agree, but I understand the formulation. Yes, but in this case, we question the “when and where” of the phenomenon, but the very existence of the phenomenon itself. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/17 "2009-04-26T16:54:16Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Are you saying that space and time are some arbitrary things we’ve dreamed up? Different observers may measure space and time intervals differently, but they’ll all agree that there’s one time dimension and three spatial dimensions. I wouldn’t say arbitrary but yes we made them up because we saw a use for them in society. We measure things, we describe things. We needed a way to measure and express that measurement in language. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/18 "2009-04-26T16:55:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If, on the other hand, we have no evidence to believe that there _is_ an “outside space and time”, can this be used as evidence that there is no “Creator” to begin with? Sure, in as much as our Sims could say the same. There is no way our Sims could prove that there is an outside their system. So for them, there isn’t. Or there is, based on their belief. But there is nothing that they could craft that could step outside their program into our existence that would offer any sort of proof. In the same way, there is no way we can offer proof there is an outside “space and time.” There is nothing we could craft to step outside our system (our program.) But don’t get me wrong. It is an analogy attempting to explain the statement. I’m not trying to convince you that this is how it _really_ is - 'cause I don’t have any idea what _I_ believe. We are told that there was no time before the big bang - that time began with the big bang. To me, it all becomes pretty meaningless at that point. God? I dunno. Before the Big Bang? I dunno. Outside space and time? I can imagine a way for it to be true and offer an analogy to try to explain my imagining. But I can’t and won’t try to tell you it is _so_. For me it is fun to think about, fun to talk about. But also for me it won’t go beyond some fun imagining. Others will have to champion that. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/19 "2009-04-26T17:05:08Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I wouldn’t say arbitrary but yes we made them up because we saw a use for them in society. You are completely wrong. We only made up the units, the _names_ for specific amounts of time or distance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/20 "2009-04-26T17:05:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I wouldn’t say arbitrary but yes we made them up because we saw a use for them in society. We measure things, we describe things. We needed a way to measure and express that measurement in language. Unfortunately, we currently have no way to describe _or_ measure this “outside”, and there is no evidence besides blind speculation and fevered dreams that it even exists. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=2)