# "Outside Space and Time"-where and when, again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402 "2009-04-26T14:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/21 "2009-04-26T17:15:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, not pertinent to the conversation. This is a discussion about the where-and-whenabouts of God _now_, not his place and time of residence before he supposedly rolled the cosmic dice. Then the answer is we don’t know. We don’t know if God is. The question to the question “are there things science has not explained or even discovered yet” is yes, wouldn’t you say? I think the concept is that a reality above beyond and outside of the one we are currently measuring exists. Purely speculation and theoretical. I don’t get why the question of God’s whereabouts is even relevant, or why our inability to answer scientifically tells us anything. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/22 "2009-04-26T17:19:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unfortunately, we currently have no way to describe _or_ measure this “outside”, and there is no evidence besides blind speculation and fevered dreams that it even exists. I agree. What do you think this means? I think “I don’t think there is anything else” or “if there is it isn’t relevant to our lives” are perfectly legitimate responses. I also think a tendency to believe there is something more is a legitimate response. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/23 "2009-04-26T17:19:57Z")
I like the SIms analogy. In fact, I read something interesting (not necessarily persuasive, but interesting) awhile ago in the NY Times. [This article](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/science/14tier.html?scp=1&sq=computer%20simulation&st=cse) suggests that, given a series of assumptions, there’s a nearly 100% mathematical certainty that we’re all simulations within a computer program. The assumptions are: -At some point, humans develop a computer powerful enough to simulate their ancestors (i.e., us, or, rather, their actual ancestors, since we’re just simulations). -They create these simulations for research or for pleasure. -Many such simulations exist. It’s a pretty interesting read. Not sure I’m convinced, but it’s interesting. As such, it’s possible that our creator–some loser dude who still lives in his mom’s basement–exists outside of space (inasmuch as what we know as space is really just the workings of a microchip) and time (ditto). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/24 "2009-04-26T17:21:08Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You are completely wrong. We only made up the units, the _names_ for specific amounts of time or distance. What were they before we made those units up and named them? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/25 "2009-04-26T17:40:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What were they before we made those units up and named them? The exact same things they are now. Why wouldn’t they be? ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/26 "2009-04-26T18:16:13Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > Sure, in as much as our Sims could say the same. There is no way our Sims could prove that there is an outside their system. So for them, there isn’t. Or there is, based on their belief. But there is nothing that they could craft that could step outside their program into our existence that would offer any sort of proof. > > In the same way, there is no way we can offer proof there is an outside “space and time.” There is nothing we could craft to step outside our system (our program.) > > But don’t get me wrong. It is an analogy attempting to explain the statement. I’m not trying to convince you that this is how it _really_ is - 'cause I don’t have any idea what _I_ believe. > > We are told that there was no time before the big bang - that time began with the big bang. > > To me, it all becomes pretty meaningless at that point. God? I dunno. Before the Big Bang? I dunno. Outside space and time? I can imagine a way for it to be true and offer an analogy to try to explain my imagining. But I can’t and won’t try to tell you it is _so_. > > For me it is fun to think about, fun to talk about. But also for me it won’t go beyond some fun imagining. Others will have to champion that. I disagree with this analogy. Isn’t it feasible that we could interface a microphone, webcam, or even just a keyboard to the Sims and communicate with them? If the program was sufficiently advanced enough (i.e. the AI of the sims), then it seems conceivable to me to belief they could hold intelligent conversation with someone “outside their known universe.” ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/27 "2009-04-26T18:38:49Z")
Saying something exists outside time and space seems illogical and borderline retarded. Something that isn’t connected to time and space does by rational definition not exist. So I guess it’s a slightly more catchy way of saying “X has property Y without fulfilling any of the criterias for property Y”. Doesn’t make sense, but then again, when does religion? I find that nodding, smiling and politely moving on is the best course of action when confronted with these things. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/28 "2009-04-26T18:48:34Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Saying something exists outside time and space seems illogical and borderline retarded. Something that isn’t connected to time and space does by rational definition not exist. So I guess it’s a slightly more catchy way of saying “X has property Y without fulfilling any of the criterias for property Y”. Doesn’t make sense, but then again, when does religion? I find that nodding, smiling and politely moving on is the best course of action when confronted with these things. See I find this kind of condescension passed of as logic to be just as worthy of of that kind of action. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/29 "2009-04-26T18:56:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The exact same things they are now. Why wouldn’t they be? The _exact_ same things? What did we call them? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/30 "2009-04-26T19:02:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > See I find this kind of condescension passed of as logic to be just as worthy of of that kind of action. I plead guilty to being condecending towards religion and religious views. I make no excuses. You could add arrogance and intolerance to the list of my flaws as well and I would not protest. The simple fact is that I don’t respect religion or religious views. I find them childish and silly and I think the world would be a better place without them. Having said that I of course strongly support everyones right to believe whatever they like, but at the same time I will excercise my right to roll my eyes, make silly noises and generally express ridicule towards people who hold beliefs that I find stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/31 "2009-04-26T19:17:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The _exact_ same things? What did we call them? We didn’t call them anything, _because we didn’t exist_. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/32 "2009-04-26T19:48:12Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > But surely we can accept the possibility of things far beyond our current scope of knowledge. Of course. But the odd thing about a belief in God is that believers say that he is beyond our scope of knowledge yet claim to know him intimately. They say he is outside of time and space yet they claim he can operate _within_ time and space but leave no sign or evidence (except in their head). _???_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/33 "2009-04-26T19:48:51Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I plead guilty to being condecending towards religion and religious views. I make no excuses. The problem is, not only does your condescension add nothing useful to the discussion, it ignores the things people have already said in the discussion about what such a phrase might mean. You may disagree with the ideas put forth, but to dismiss them as stupid without explaining why only advances our knowledge insasmuch as we now know more about what kind of intellect you possess–which, no offense, isn’t particularly interesting knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/34 "2009-04-26T19:55:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Then the answer is we don’t know. **We don’t know if God is**. The question to the question “are there things science has not explained or even discovered yet” is yes, wouldn’t you say? (bolding mine) I would disagree because there is not even any reason to wonder “if _God_ is”. A more useful statement would be: “We don’t know _what_ is”. If one chooses to define God as anything unknown then of course “God” exists. But if that is the case, one is only using God as a variable. One might as well say “X” instead of “God”. As usual, the whole God debate comes down to one’s definition of God. I maintain that if one’s definition of God is “X” (the unknown) then God exists, but that is a silly and misleading use of the word God. Pretty much any other definition of God (save pantheism) is mere fantasizing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/35 "2009-04-26T19:57:35Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > As usual, the whole God debate comes down to one’s definition of God. I maintain that if your definition of God is “X” (the unknown) then God exists, but that is a silly and misleading use of the word God. Agreed, but I think that’s beyond the scope of this thread. The interesting question here, I think, is whether it’s coherent to speak of an entity existing beyond the space and the time we know of. I believe it is, for reasons given above. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/36 "2009-04-26T20:04:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem is, not only does your condescension add nothing useful to the discussion, it ignores the things people have already said in the discussion about what such a phrase might mean. You may disagree with the ideas put forth, but to dismiss them as stupid without explaining why only advances our knowledge insasmuch as we now know more about what kind of intellect you possess–which, no offense, isn’t particularly interesting knowledge. I respectfully disagree. Firstly I think I explained why I find this particular statement about a magical entity existing without existing stupid, and secondly I don’t think there’s much point in developing the answer beyond that. Someone who holds irrational views to the deep extent of religiousness will most likely not change their view just because someone makes a good argument against it. So there’s no point in having a discussion with the intent of changing someones mind on the matter. So my conclusion (which may very well be seriously flawed and/or stupid) is that the only points of discussing religion with someone who is religious are these: 1. To discourage other neutral or undecided observers from catching religion 2. Personal amusement ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/37 "2009-04-26T20:08:16Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I respectfully disagree. Firstly I think I explained why I find this particular statement about a magical entity existing without existing stupid, and secondly I don’t think there’s much point in developing the answer beyond that. You explained that you found it stupid, but you did nothing to refute the ideas listed. You just called them stupid. And saying “existing without existing” just shows that you haven’t begun to comprehend some of the explanations offered. You could use some humility; it’d help you break past your own barriers and maybe learn something. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/38 "2009-04-26T20:09:56Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I plead guilty to being condecending towards religion and religious views. I make no excuses. You could add arrogance and intolerance to the list of my flaws as well and I would not protest. The simple fact is that I don’t respect religion or religious views. I find them childish and silly and I think the world would be a better place without them. Having said that I of course strongly support everyones right to believe whatever they like, but at the same time I will excercise my right to roll my eyes, make silly noises and generally express ridicule towards people who hold beliefs that I find stupid. What is it about religious beliefs that offends you so much? How is “love thy neighbor” stupid? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/39 "2009-04-26T20:10:11Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I plead guilty to being condecending towards religion and religious views. I make no excuses. You could add arrogance and intolerance to the list of my flaws as well and I would not protest. The simple fact is that I don’t respect religion or religious views. I find them childish and silly and I think the world would be a better place without them. Having said that I of course strongly support everyones right to believe whatever they like, but at the same time I will excercise my right to roll my eyes, make silly noises and generally express ridicule towards people who hold beliefs that I find stupid. Well that, friend is refreshingly honest at least. The thing is this “Something that isn’t connected to time and space does by rational definition not exist.” isn’t necessarily religious. To each their own. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/40 "2009-04-26T20:12:06Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > We didn’t call them anything, _because we didn’t exist_. I guess there was no one around to prove how completely wrong I am. Lucky for me I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=3)