# "Outside Space and Time"-where and when, again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402 "2009-04-26T14:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/81 "2009-04-27T12:51:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, not pertinent to the conversation. This is a discussion about the where-and-whenabouts of God _now_, not his place and time of residence before he supposedly rolled the cosmic dice. It sure is pertinent. Why should God have moved? Even discounting the presence of God: Prior to the universe being created there must have been ‘X’. Since the university is _still_ growing, it didn’t instantaneously fill or displace ‘X’. Therefore ‘X’ must still be around outside the current universe, right? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/82 "2009-04-27T13:09:21Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Prior to the universe being created there must have been ‘X’. If the universe is everything, then before the universe existed, there must have been “nothing”. Sure enough, there is still nothing outside of the universe. Personally, I could get behind a god who exists nowhere for no amount of time. Oh, I forgot, I’m an atheist, I already worship the all powerful “nothing”. Atreyu help us. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/83 "2009-04-27T13:19:05Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Even discounting the presence of God: Prior to the universe being created there must have been ‘X’. Since the university is _still_ growing, it didn’t instantaneously fill or displace ‘X’. Therefore ‘X’ must still be around outside the current universe, right? Well, what’s prior to ‘X’? What’s outside of ‘X’? If things can exist to which there is no prior existence, the universe can exist without anything existing prior to it; if things can exist to which there is no outside existence, the universe can exist without anything existing outside of it. If things can’t exist in this manner, you’re left with an infinite stack of matryoshka shells, and haven’t gained anything by shifting your questions towards ‘X’. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/84 "2009-04-27T13:40:45Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If things can’t exist in this manner, you’re left with an infinite stack of matryoshka shells, and haven’t gained anything by shifting your questions towards ‘X’. Well, sure, but all evidence suggests that the universe did \*not \*always exist and that it _is_ expanding. So we know there is at least 1 matryoshka shell around. What the details of that matryoshka shell is, we don’t know. Maybe it had a beginning, maybe it didn’t. If a something can exist without a prior something or when, it doesn’t necessarily follow that ‘this’ one is the first. Why not 2 or more shells down? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/85 "2009-04-27T13:58:48Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Well, sure, but all evidence suggests that the universe did \*not \*always exist and that it _is_ expanding. So we know there is at least 1 matryoshka shell around. Time, as far as we know, came only into existence with the Big Bang, so the notion of ‘always’ and ‘prior’ is problematic at best, and most likely simply inapplicable; similarly, expansion does not imply expanding into some space-that-is-not-our-space (see the balloon example in my previous post). So I think that the assertion that we know that something outside our universe must necessarily exist is somewhat premature at best. Besides, even if there was some surrounding matryoshka shell, what exactly would make this something external to our universe, rather than merely an expansion of our conception thereof? So the whole expanding thingy we know and observe is just a part of the whole universe; big deal. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/86 "2009-04-27T13:58:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t disagree with this. I think people should understand that what we call spiritual is a constantly changing internal process and we should incorporate objective data as well. We observe how interpersonal relations work and how love, mercy, compassion, honesty, work in comparison to the alternatives and adjust. I’d like to think of it as growth, both personal and societal. I think people should stop trying to blend the spiritual with the scientific. They are two separate tools used to perform two separate jobs. Science can only tell you how the universe works. Religeon and philosophy exist to help us ask why it works and decide how we want to behave in it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/87 "2009-04-27T14:36:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, not pertinent to the conversation. This is a discussion about the where-and-whenabouts of God _now_, not his place and time of residence before he supposedly rolled the cosmic dice. Why wouldn’t she be in the same “place?” If God existed prior to the Universe, then there is some sort of existence possible beyond the universe which would be beyond space and time, as these are properties of the universe. If there isn’t any God, then the question becomes moot, like wondering how Superman can possibly fly. Grist for fanwanking, but with no connection to reality. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/88 "2009-04-27T14:37:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think people should stop trying to blend the spiritual with the scientific. They are two separate tools used to perform two separate jobs. Science can only tell you how the universe works. Religeon and philosophy exist to help us ask why it works and decide how we want to behave in it. At least we should try and clarify where the lines are drawn. The Bahai see science and religion as two paths to the truth and ultimately cannot be in conflict with each other. Science helps us sift the facts from traditional beliefs as we examine archaeological evidence as well as other data. That’s helpful, but essentially I agree that the philosophical portion of religion and science should not be mixed. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/89 "2009-04-27T14:52:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I wouldn’t say arbitrary but yes we made them up because we saw a use for them in society. We measure things, we describe things. We needed a way to measure and express that measurement in language. We didn’t make up space and time, any more than we made up matter and energy. If you’re saying space and time are abritrary human constructs, then why not go all in and say all of reality is an arbitrary human construct? I’m aware that relativity shows that people will measure spatial and temporal intervals differently, according to their reference frame. But they’ll still measure in a 4-D grid, with three space dimensions and one time dimension, and the space-time differentials they measure will agree; which is why spacetime, rather than space and time is said to be real. (Note, that’s my layperson’s understanding. If a passing physicist would like to correct anything I’d appreciate it.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/90 "2009-04-27T15:19:18Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > We didn’t make up space and time, any more than we made up matter and energy. If you’re saying space and time are abritrary human constructs, then why not go all in and say all of reality is an arbitrary human construct? Well, yes. It is. After all, I’m the only thing that \*really \*exists and everything else is a figment of my vibrant imagination. Except the platypus, he’s real too. And he’s _pissed_. > [@](#): > > I’m aware that relativity shows that people will measure spatial and temporal intervals differently, according to their reference frame. But they’ll still measure in a 4-D grid, with three space dimensions and one time dimension, and the space-time differentials they measure will agree; which is why spacetime, rather than space and time is said to be real. (Note, that’s my layperson’s understanding. If a passing physicist would like to correct anything I’d appreciate it.) Which is not to say dimensions that we can’t perceive do not exist. Mathematicians deal with N dimensional spaces all the time. Here’s a 2D representations of a 5D construct : [5-cube - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penteract). Careful, it might make your brain hurt. It certainly does mine. To me, “outside of space and time” means the same thing Lovecraft’s “non-Euclydian architecture” does : something you can’t describe adequately within the confines of human experience, and that can’t be experienced without popping a truckload of LSD and writing “I’m a fish fillet with shame and a guilty conscience” forty thousand times. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/91 "2009-04-27T15:23:25Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > We didn’t make up space and time, any more than we made up matter and energy. If you’re saying space and time are abritrary human constructs, then why not go all in and say all of reality is an arbitrary human construct? > > I’m aware that relativity shows that people will measure spatial and temporal intervals differently, according to their reference frame. But they’ll still measure in a 4-D grid, with three space dimensions and one time dimension, and the space-time differentials they measure will agree; which is why spacetime, rather than space and time is said to be real. (Note, that’s my layperson’s understanding. If a passing physicist would like to correct anything I’d appreciate it.) We’re in over my head now. I’d be glad to be educated. I’m only saying we had a need to measure things based on our perspective and in order for society and language to function, so we created the methods we use for measuring time and space {distances} That’s why they vary. It doesn’t matter what we call them or how they vary relatively speaking as long as they fulfill their function. So, in that sense it seems we created them. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/92 "2009-04-27T15:29:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > We’re in over my head now. I’d be glad to be educated. I’m only saying we had a need to measure things based on our perspective and in order for society and language to function, so we created the methods we use for measuring time and space {distances} That’s why they vary. It doesn’t matter what we call them or how they vary relatively speaking as long as they fulfill their function. So, in that sense it seems we created them. Certainly things like kilometers, seconds, and years are arbitrary. But the things they measure aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/93 "2009-04-27T15:49:11Z")
[Obligatory link to Flatland by Edwin A Abbott](http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/94 "2009-04-27T18:13:24Z")
The Planiverse was interesting when I read way back when, too. > **[The Planiverse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planiverse)** > > The Planiverse is a novel by A. K. Dewdney, written in 1984. > In the spirit of Edwin Abbott Abbott's Flatland, Dewdney and his computer science students simulate a two-dimensional world with a complex ecosystem. To their surprise, they find their artificial 2D universe has somehow accidentally become a means of communication with an actual 2D world: Arde. They make a sort of "telepathic" contact with "YNDRD", referred to by the students as Yendred, a highly philosophical Ardean, as he begins a jo... There was no way for a 2D creature to describe a 3D one, other than “it exists elsewhere”, because it knows and understands only a 2D coordinate system. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/95 "2009-04-27T18:19:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In another thread someone(it doesn’t matter who-the term is used many times by many people) said “God exists outside Space and Time” as if this was all the explanation necessary for those trying to find evidence of that being. > Is this a valid explanation? What does “outside space” mean, and where is it? What does “outside time” mean, and when is it(not looking for discussion on the nature of time before the universe existed-the claim is that God is in a constant state of existing outside time)? I think **Frylock** (who everyone is ignoring) pretty much has it. There is no real problem with the universe getting created by something outside our space and time, but within its space and time - though there is likely that there is no way for these universes to interact. That eliminates the need for any godly powers for universe creators - it could be a grad student for all we know. The big problem with the outside space and time hypothesis is that it is not useful. And entity existing solely outside of space and time can have no interactions with us, and so worshiping it is kind of pointless, since we’d have no clue about what it wants. This god is functionally nonexistent. So that isn’t what our theist friends worship. A god we can’t understand is similar, in that it is absurd to claim a god we don’t understand wants us to do X and not Y. So, we can only worship the understandable portion of a god who interacts with us in our time and space. This god can be examined logically, but as far as we can tell no should interaction has been demonstrated, or no evidence of such an interaction that makes the existence of a god more likely than people making stuff up has been shown. And, **Zoe** , I can imagine all sorts of stuff, but it is useful to distinguish between what we imagine and what we have evidence for. In my research life I’ve imagined all sorts of incorrect things, but I’ve usually done experiments to screen them out before I try to publish them. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/96 "2009-04-27T18:32:45Z")
There is no evidence for anything outside our space-time. That means we cannot make any scientific statements about anything outside our space-time. Including whether or not anything outside our space-time does or does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/97 "2009-04-27T18:59:20Z")
Someone could argue (and some fellow named Levi-Strauss apparently did) that you and I were born into a deterministic world in which we previously had not existed, to live a life in which everything that we think or do is no more than a mechanical consequence of prior circumstances, after which we will disappear, after which the planet will disappear, the stars will burn out, and everything that we do or think or attempt or care about will be as if they had never happened, leaving absolutely zero — _zero!_ — record of our having been there. There is no evidence that this “existence” of which you speak can be meaningfully distinguished from nonexistence. Oh, you may be able to demonstrate that a measurement can be obtained which will match measurements that are held, for reasons of prior causation the validity of which cannot be ascertained, by passive beings who are part of the same system whose existence you are trying to establish, as being in some way indicative of “evidence” that you or I are real, but why should we grant that any particular credibility? [/semi-parody] The point is, such things as “evidence” and “reason to believe” are all contextual, all the more so as you get deeper into abstractions. If someone were asserting, oh I dunno, the existence of 7 feet tall fuzzy grey aliens with almond shaped eyes traveling somewhere through the particular chunk of spacetime that our own planet occupies, with occasional set-downs in underpopulated areas, then I think by the very nature of the assertions one could reasonably say “show me some actual aliens, alive or dead, or other verifiable support for their existence”. But to ask for empirical evidence of God is akin to asking for empirical evidence that solipsism is not the correct interpretation of experience, or that yes you do exist in a way meaningfully distinguishable from your nonexistence. Philosophical abstractions and concepts of the divine are not (or at least not necessarily) the same thing as assertions about matter energy and/or life forms, and it’s silly of anyone on _this_ board, at least, to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/98 "2009-04-27T19:05:30Z")
There is quite abundant evidence for things existing outside of space and time. For example, all mathematical objects exist outside of space and time. That is to say, any mathematical theorem that is true, is true at any location and at any time. Hence anyone who believes in the correctness of mathematics understands how something can exist in space and time. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/99 "2009-04-27T19:18:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think **Frylock** (who everyone is ignoring) pretty much has it. There is no real problem with the universe getting created by something outside our space and time, but within its space and time - though there is likely that there is no way for these universes to interact. That eliminates the need for any godly powers for universe creators - it could be a grad student for all we know. > > The big problem with the outside space and time hypothesis is that it is not useful. And entity existing solely outside of space and time can have no interactions with us, and so worshiping it is kind of pointless, since we’d have no clue about what it wants. I don’t see why it would be necessarily true that an entity that exists above and beyond space and time could have no interactions with us. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/100 "2009-04-27T19:24:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think **Frylock** (who everyone is ignoring) pretty much has it. There is no real problem with the universe getting created by something outside our space and time, but within its space and time - though there is likely that there is no way for these universes to interact. That eliminates the need for any godly powers for universe creators - it could be a grad student for all we know. > > The big problem with the outside space and time hypothesis is that it is not useful. And entity existing solely outside of space and time can have no interactions with us, and so worshiping it is kind of pointless, since we’d have no clue about what it wants. This god is functionally nonexistent. So that isn’t what our theist friends worship. A god we can’t understand is similar, in that it is absurd to claim a god we don’t understand wants us to do X and not Y. So, we can only worship the understandable portion of a god who interacts with us in our time and space. This god can be examined logically, but as far as we can tell no should interaction has been demonstrated, or no evidence of such an interaction that makes the existence of a god more likely than people making stuff up has been shown. > > And, **Zoe** , I can imagine all sorts of stuff, but it is useful to distinguish between what we imagine and what we have evidence for. In my research life I’ve imagined all sorts of incorrect things, but I’ve usually done experiments to screen them out before I try to publish them. After reading this I just want to note… God doesn’t exist _outside_ space and time… God _transcends_ space and time, and is fully capable to work within space and time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=6)