# "Outside Space and Time"-where and when, again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402 "2009-04-26T14:17:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/101 "2009-04-27T19:26:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > There is quite abundant evidence for things existing outside of space and time. For example, all mathematical objects exist outside of space and time. That is to say, any mathematical theorem that is true, is true at any location and at any time. Hence anyone who believes in the correctness of mathematics understands how something can exist in space and time. Mathematics is a human construct. It it exists only in the same sense as any other idea exists. And that existence is constrained to sentient minds. If humans ceased to exist, so would our mathematics. We can use mathematics to describe the universe. But the fit between mathematics and the universe must be supported by evidence. Because there is no evidence of things outside the universe, we cannot make any scientific conclusions about the applicability of mathematics to anything there. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/102 "2009-04-27T20:40:18Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > After reading this I just want to note… God doesn’t exist _outside_ space and time… God _transcends_ space and time, and is fully capable to work within space and time. What, exactly, does it mean for something to transcend space and time? (All the explanations I’ve heard so far were neither here nor there… :p) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/103 "2009-04-27T20:49:39Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I respectfully disagree. Firstly I think I explained why I find this particular statement about a magical entity existing without existing stupid, and secondly I don’t think there’s much point in developing the answer beyond that. Someone who holds irrational views to the deep extent of religiousness will most likely not change their view just because someone makes a good argument against it. So there’s no point in having a discussion with the intent of changing someones mind on the matter. > > So my conclusion (which may very well be seriously flawed and/or stupid) is that the only points of discussing religion with someone who is religious are these: > > 1. To discourage other neutral or undecided observers from catching religion > > 2. Personal amusement I don’t have a lot of time to get in to this today, but for the purposes of discussions like this I suggest leaving “religion” out of it. It’s really a question about a Creator. Assume everyone agrees that every religion known to man is incorrect. Or even that if this Creator God does exist, he wants no notice by man. It’s really a philosophical discussion. Equating a Creator God with religion is a cheap way to frame the discussion. It ends up billing a straw man of “religion”, and has nothing to do with the degree to which the whole universe was birthed by a Creator. That is, if you want to have an honest, serious debate about it. If not, feel free to disregard. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/104 "2009-04-27T21:21:55Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Mathematics is a human construct. It it exists only in the same sense as any other idea exists. And that existence is constrained to sentient minds. If humans ceased to exist, so would our mathematics. This is a subject of much controversy. It depends on which of several [schools of thought](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics#Contemporary_schools_of_thought) you belong to (formalism, intuitionism, mathematical realism, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/105 "2009-04-27T21:25:40Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > After reading this I just want to note… God doesn’t exist _outside_ space and time… God _transcends_ space and time, and is fully capable to work within space and time. Good point! The standard (albeit paradoxical) belief of Christians, et al is that [God is both transcendent and immanent](http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/transcendent.htm). (See the linked article for what this means and its relevance to the discussion at hand.) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/106 "2009-04-27T21:30:41Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > This is a subject of much controversy. It depends on which of several [schools of thought](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics#Contemporary_schools_of_thought) you belong to (formalism, intuitionism, mathematical realism, etc.). Yeah, I know. But from a scientific standpoint, it doesn’t matter unless any of the schools can provide a falsifiable hypothesis about the universe. Until then, mathematics is simply a tool for describing the universe or an intellectual pastime. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/107 "2009-04-27T21:46:19Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Good point! The standard (albeit paradoxical) belief of Christians, et al is that [God is both transcendent and immanent](http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/transcendent.htm). (See the linked article for what this means and its relevance to the discussion at hand.) Very interesting. One thing in the article that relates to **Voyager** ’s post and I to disagree with. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if God is absolutely perfect beyond all experience and understanding, then God must also be transcendent. If God is timeless (outside of time and space) and unchangable, then God cannot also be immanent within us, beings who are within time. Such a God must be wholly “other,” transcendent to everything we know. I don’t agree God cannot be both timeless and immanent within us. I think it could mean that some portion of us is also timeless which is what Jesus advised us to value in > [@](#): > > Matt 6: 19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Meaning, treasure that is not affected by time. I think it’s a matter of our perception and our priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/108 "2009-04-27T22:17:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t see why it would be necessarily true that an entity that exists above and beyond space and time could have no interactions with us. You didn’t quote my other possibilities, in which something which is partially existent outside of space and time does interact - which is where we need evidence. The part you quoted says **solely** outside of space and time. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/109 "2009-04-27T22:19:58Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > After reading this I just want to note… God doesn’t exist _outside_ space and time… God _transcends_ space and time, and is fully capable to work within space and time. I agree. Any god worthy of the name must also operate in space and time. But this makes the excuse that we can’t examine god because of his existence outside of space and time invalid - we can examine the worldly interactions, just as the Flatlanders can examine the two dimensional projection of Mr. Sphere. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/110 "2009-04-27T22:27:12Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > The point is, such things as “evidence” and “reason to believe” are all contextual, all the more so as you get deeper into abstractions. If someone were asserting, oh I dunno, the existence of 7 feet tall fuzzy grey aliens with almond shaped eyes traveling somewhere through the particular chunk of spacetime that our own planet occupies, with occasional set-downs in underpopulated areas, then I think by the very nature of the assertions one could reasonably say “show me some actual aliens, alive or dead, or other verifiable support for their existence”. But to ask for empirical evidence of God is akin to asking for empirical evidence that solipsism is not the correct interpretation of experience, or that yes you do exist in a way meaningfully distinguishable from your nonexistence. Philosophical abstractions and concepts of the divine are not (or at least not necessarily) the same thing as assertions about matter energy and/or life forms, and it’s silly of anyone on _this_ board, at least, to pretend otherwise. Assuming this is directed at me, I’m not expecting empirical evidence of god, or his shoe size, but rather empirical evidence of God’s supposed interactions with the world. We have plenty of evidence against solipism - no proof, of course, but we don’t have nearly as good evidence for god. Useful (as opposed to purely deistic) concepts of the divine, or theology and religious doctrine, include specific instances of god giving messages to at least some humans. Those messages are evidence. If they include statements that we now know are false, and which a deity would know are false, but a person at the time would think are true, that is evidence that the person did not have a connection to a deity. Not proof, since anyone can filter the falsehoods from the truth and claim the falsehoods are parables, mistranslations, or sugaring by the contactee, but they are certainly evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/111 "2009-04-27T22:31:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t have a lot of time to get in to this today, but for the purposes of discussions like this I suggest leaving “religion” out of it. It’s really a question about a Creator. Assume everyone agrees that every religion known to man is incorrect. Or even that if this Creator God does exist, he wants no notice by man. It’s really a philosophical discussion. Equating a Creator God with religion is a cheap way to frame the discussion. It ends up billing a straw man of “religion”, and has nothing to do with the degree to which the whole universe was birthed by a Creator. > > That is, if you want to have an honest, serious debate about it. If not, feel free to disregard. I agree. To be fair, some religions try to demonstrate the necessity of a Creator God then use sleight of hand to use this as evidence of a certain dogma. The interesting questions are: how does the existence of a Creator God, if one were demonstrated, affect us, and what would be the impact on us of various characteristics of a Creator God? There would certainly be a difference between a god who created the universe for a purpose versus one who did it more or less accidentally, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/112 "2009-04-27T22:40:35Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > The Planiverse was interesting when I read way back when, too. > > [The Planiverse - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planiverse) > > There was no way for a 2D creature to describe a 3D one, other than “it exists elsewhere”, because it knows and understands only a 2D coordinate system. Not really; it can describe a 3d creature the way we can describe a 4d one. Mathematics and analogy. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t see why it would be necessarily true that an entity that exists above and beyond space and time could have no interactions with us. The argument is that it would have no medium to do so; that anything beyond space and time would be in no way connected to our universe, and therefore unable to interact with it. > [@AHunter3](#): > > But to ask for empirical evidence of God is akin to asking for empirical evidence that solipsism is not the correct interpretation of experience, or that yes you do exist in a way meaningfully distinguishable from your nonexistence. Philosophical abstractions and concepts of the divine are not (or at least not necessarily) the same thing as assertions about matter energy and/or life forms, and it’s silly of anyone on _this_ board, at least, to pretend otherwise. “Concepts of the divine” ARE the same as “assertions about matter energy and/or life forms”. It’s just that believers want to pretend otherwise, and want a special set of rules. Because when you apply the same standards to claims about God that get applied to everything else, God is shown to be the silly fiction that it is. > [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > After reading this I just want to note… God doesn’t exist _outside_ space and time… God _transcends_ space and time, and is fully capable to work within space and time. And you know this how ? Oh, right. God’s only unknowable when someone asks for evidence of his existence. When a believer wants to gush about how awesome he is, suddenly God’s nature is obvious. > [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t have a lot of time to get in to this today, but for the purposes of discussions like this I suggest leaving “religion” out of it. It’s really a question about a Creator. Assume everyone agrees that every religion known to man is incorrect. Or even that if this Creator God does exist, he wants no notice by man. It’s really a philosophical discussion. Equating a Creator God with religion is a cheap way to frame the discussion. It ends up billing a straw man of “religion”, and has nothing to do with the degree to which the whole universe was birthed by a Creator. > > That is, if you want to have an honest, serious debate about it. If not, feel free to disregard. First, an “honest, serious” debate would start with the assumption that God is just an evidence-free myth - just as a discussion of Zeus or Anu would. And second, leaving religion out of it is dishonest, because defending religion is the whole point. There’s no reason to believe that there IS a Creator, except that it’s asserted by various religions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/113 "2009-04-27T22:40:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think **Frylock** (who everyone is ignoring) pretty much has it. There is no real problem with the universe getting created by something outside our space and time, but within its space and time - though there is likely that there is no way for these universes to interact. That eliminates the need for any godly powers for universe creators - it could be a grad student for all we know. > > The big problem with the outside space and time hypothesis is that it is not useful. And entity existing solely outside of space and time can have no interactions with us, and so worshiping it is kind of pointless, since we’d have no clue about what it wants. This god is functionally nonexistent. So that isn’t what our theist friends worship. A god we can’t understand is similar, in that it is absurd to claim a god we don’t understand wants us to do X and not Y. So, we can only worship the understandable portion of a god who interacts with us in our time and space. This god can be examined logically, but as far as we can tell no should interaction has been demonstrated, or no evidence of such an interaction that makes the existence of a god more likely than people making stuff up has been shown. Consider the gamer who creates a backwards-running universe, the one we’re in. We perceive it as running forward, because that’s how we’re programmed, but in “real” time (i.e., that in which the computer running our simulation is operating), it’s running backward, and at 365 times the speed of “actual” time. For every day in the real world, a year goes backward in our simulated world. After a millennium has passed in the simulation, the gamer-creator decides to tweak the system by adding a variable. The variable will only be a conclusion, not a cause: after this variable happens, nobody will remember it (because time runs backward, remember). Rather, it’ll become a new effect that must be preceded by causes. Does this programmer exist wholly outside of our time and space? Does this programmer have an effect on our time and space? I know this is a rather silly example, but I’m choosing it specifically to avoid complications of real-world religion; I’m interested in the underlying question, and figure we can hash out the implications later. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/114 "2009-04-27T23:20:17Z")
Considering that we don’t yet know what 97% of our known universe consists of, aren’t we being a little premature speculating what may lie outside it and whether it has any effect upon us? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/115 "2009-04-27T23:23:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Considering that we don’t yet know what 97% of our known universe consists of, aren’t we being a little premature speculating what may lie outside it and whether it has any effect upon us? That’s rather the point; to stick “God” someplace we can’t look at, to show that he’s imaginary. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/116 "2009-04-27T23:29:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s rather the point; to stick “God” someplace we can’t look at, to show that he’s imaginary. Aha! Quite sneaky, really. I approve your cunning plan. Do continue. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/117 "2009-04-27T23:45:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I agree. To be fair, some religions try to demonstrate the necessity of a Creator God then use sleight of hand to use this as evidence of a certain dogma. > The interesting questions are: how does the existence of a Creator God, if one were demonstrated, affect us, and what would be the impact on us of various characteristics of a Creator God? There would certainly be a difference between a god who created the universe for a purpose versus one who did it more or less accidentally, for example. Yes. Any religion is free to argue whatever the heck it pleases. But this discussion needn’t—and shouldn’t—go that far. It should be about the Creator God, and IF there was a Creator God. Period. Anything else is a different discussion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/118 "2009-04-27T23:47:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > First, an “honest, serious” debate would start with the assumption that God is just an evidence-free myth - just as a discussion of Zeus or Anu would. And second, leaving religion out of it is dishonest, because defending religion is the whole point. There’s no reason to believe that there IS a Creator, except that it’s asserted by various religions. As usual, your myopic hate for religion renders you unable to have a fair, honest, or serious discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/119 "2009-04-28T00:02:01Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > It sure is pertinent. Why should God have moved? ? The answer to questions like that is generally “money.” I expect the rent on OutsideSpace&Time went from Infinity Per Eternity to Infinity-_Aleph_ per eternity, God decided he’d rather spend the _Aleph_ on cable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402/120 "2009-04-28T00:05:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Consider the gamer who creates a backwards-running universe, the one we’re in. We perceive it as running forward, because that’s how we’re programmed, but in “real” time (i.e., that in which the computer running our simulation is operating), it’s running backward, and at 365 times the speed of “actual” time. For every day in the real world, a year goes backward in our simulated world. > > After a millennium has passed in the simulation, the gamer-creator decides to tweak the system by adding a variable. The variable will only be a conclusion, not a cause: after this variable happens, nobody will remember it (because time runs backward, remember). Rather, it’ll become a new effect that must be preceded by causes. > > Does this programmer exist wholly outside of our time and space? Does this programmer have an effect on our time and space? > > I know this is a rather silly example, but I’m choosing it specifically to avoid complications of real-world religion; I’m interested in the underlying question, and figure we can hash out the implications later. I’m afraid I’d get bogged down by discussions of entropy in your example. Would subtle changes in natural laws, or causing events that we’d call inherently uncertain to be deterministic work just as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-space-and-time-where-and-when-again/494402.md?page=7)