# Outside the US are there big battles over abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379 "2015-04-23T19:16:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/21 "2015-04-24T09:29:00Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Oh totally. Abortion is regularly raised as an issue whenever there’s an EU Treaty to be voted on, for example. This led to a protocol being attached to the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 stating that Ireland’s constitutional protection of “the right to life of the unborn” would be unaffected by anything in EU law. Another one was added to the Lisbon Treaty after it was initially defeated in an Irish referendum in 2008 (even though there was no actual evidence that abortion was a significant factor in its defeat). > > We don’t have the situation here where anti-abortion amendments are tacked on to wholly unrelated bills in Parliament, but there’s no real reason to when the law already prohibits abortion in virtually all circumstances. > > One minor pedantic note on eclectic wench’s post, the law didn’t change with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act - abortion was legal before then when the woman’s life was at risk, thanks to the actual wording of the constitutional clause (which also refers to “the right to life of the mother”). It just hadn’t been legislated for, and thus doctors had no real guidelines as to how to determine when that threshold had been reached. Unfortunately, the guidelines are still fairly muddled after the Act. If the No side could shoehorn it into the latest referendum debate it would not surprise me in the least. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/22 "2015-04-24T11:26:19Z")
My WAG was the Philippines, which was a correct assumption. Hundreds of thousands of illegal abortions every year put tens of thousands of women in hospital, and the Catholic leaders are still battling against using contraception. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/23 "2015-04-24T13:02:50Z")
In England, Scotland and Wales, it’;s not any kind of issue politically. Occasionally some people aver one party they dislike — say the Conservatives or UKIP — will someday probably bring in restrictions, but these remain rumours, and no-one gets excited; or one of the gutter-press rags will have an occasional headline, **Scandal of 500 Million Abortions A Year Paid For By The NHS !!** [\*guess which \*], but again no-one really cares. Socially it’s not discussed much, mostly because it’s none of our business. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/24 "2015-04-24T13:20:22Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Actually the US has more liberal abortion laws than most of Europe. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/25 "2015-04-24T13:57:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Cite? From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Most countries in the European Union allow abortion on demand during the first trimester. After the first trimester, abortion is allowed only under certain circumstances, such as risk to woman’s life or health, fetal defects or other specific situations that may be related to the circumstances of the conception or the woman’s age. For instance, in Austria, second trimester abortions are allowed only if there is a serious risk to physical health of woman (that cannot be averted by other means); risk to mental health of woman (that cannot be averted by other means); immediate risk to life of woman (that cannot be averted by other means); serious fetal impairment (physical or mental); or if the woman is under 14 years of age. Some countries, such as Denmark, allow abortion after the first trimester for a variety of reasons, including socioeconomic ones, but a woman needs an authorization to have such an abortion.[16] > > It should be noted that the access to an abortion in much of Europe depends not as much on the letter of the law, but on the prevailing social views which lead to the interpretation of the laws. For instance, in parts of Europe, laws which allow a second trimester abortion due to mental health concerns (when it is deemed that the woman’s psychological health would suffer from the continuation of the pregnancy) have come to be interpreted very liberally, while in other conservative areas it is difficult to have a legal abortion even in the early stages of the pregnancy due to the policy of conscientious objection, under which doctors are allowed to refuse to perform an abortion if it is against their moral or religious convictions.[17] The 2nd paragraph is important because just how liberal the laws are may depend on the interpretation in a particular jurisdiction. But just going by the letter of law, I think the US wins out over most of Europe. Still, it’s a bit of a judgement call. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/26 "2015-04-24T14:30:37Z")
The first paragraph is largely consistent with US abortion law. After viability, states can (and enthusiastically do) limit access. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/27 "2015-04-24T14:57:40Z")
As mentioned earlier, Canada does not have any restrictions such as those set out in that summary. The lack of any laws restricting abortion I suppose make us more liberal than the US on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/28 "2015-04-24T15:31:32Z")
In Germany, not an issue (anymore). It was in the 1970s and maybe in the early 1980s. There is a certain procedure to follow and health insurance will (usually) pay for the abortion. Some Catholic bishops are unhappy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/29 "2015-04-24T16:36:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The first paragraph is largely consistent with US abortion law. After viability, states can (and enthusiastically do) limit access. Viability is long after the 1st Trimester. I think the cut-off is around 22 weeks. The first Trimester is about 12 weeks. Now, the vast majority of abortions are performed before the 3rd month, so only a small percentage of people seeking abortions are affected, but I can’t see how you can equate “the first trimester” with “viability”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/30 "2015-04-24T17:11:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > In much of Latin America abortion isn’t that contentious of an issue, because the pro life side has supermajority support so there isn’t all that much controversial. Likewise in many majority-Muslim countries, like[Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, Iraq, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Guinea, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Chad, Lebanon, Kuwait, Mauritania, Oman, Gambia, Comoros, Qatar, Djibouti, Brunei, and Maldives](http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.jsp). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/31 "2015-04-24T18:11:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As mentioned earlier, Canada does not have any restrictions such as those set out in that summary. The lack of any laws restricting abortion I suppose make us more liberal than the US on this issue. As I understood the debate at the time, the difficulty in composing a replacement law was that anti-abortion types refused to back a law with reasonable(!) exceptions, and pro-choice types refused to back a law with unreasonable (! - YMMV) restrictions. Since nobody could compromise, the eventual result was no law. Most of Canada seems to like it that way, current prime minister’s inclinations notwithstanding. Even Harper himself has decided that the abortion law is a can of worms he does not want to open. Liberal leader Trudeau has said that any new candidates for his party must support abortion on demand. The NDP, the other opposition party, has disallowed pro-choice candidates for over a decade. Those two parties together poll typically 60% or more of the votes, so Canadians are pretty firmly pro-choice and/or the topic is irrelevant to Canadian politics. There’s a sort of humorous backlash in the abortion debate. Dr. Henry Morgentaler spent a career trying to bring cheap, safe outpatient abortion services to women across Canada, opening clinics in several provinces. Conservative (the outlook, not the party) politicians spent a lot of time trying to block this, and one tactic was to require the procedure be done in full hospitals, not outpatient clinics. Once the Supreme court decided that the existing law against the procedure was unconstitutional, this meant the procedures - done in hospitals - had to be funded by and covered by Medicare but the health authorities could not put limits why the procedure was to be done. Correct me if I’m wrong, but based on my decades old learning about the Canadian/British parliamentary system - unlike the US system, the bills being passed by parliaments have a purpose. That is, a bill specifically aims to do a specific task. (Although “omnibus bills” addressing multiple tasks at once, have become more common). Amendments must either be approved by the sponsor of the bill (usually the government) and/or relate to the purpose of the bill. You cannot tack for example, “health care money cannot be spent on abortion” on a road funding bill, nor can you tack “build a bridge to nowhere” or “make pot legal” clause onto a bill to create a university in Walla Walla. regardless, in most parliaments the addition of clauses is strictly controlled by the government. The anarchy and chaos of US congressional politics seems very odd from up here. As a result, if someone wants a bill to change the law (or lack) surrounding abortion, they need to draft a specific bill and get it onto the list for parliament, not play random amendment games. I assume many European systems are similarly controlled and so factions would find it very difficult to hijack legislation with off-topic amendments. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/32 "2015-04-24T19:17:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Likewise in many majority-Muslim countries, like[Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, Iraq, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Guinea, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Chad, Lebanon, Kuwait, Mauritania, Oman, Gambia, Comoros, Qatar, Djibouti, Brunei, and Maldives](http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.jsp). > > Regards, > Shodan On-demand abortion is legal in Pakistan, according to your own citation (at least during the first trimester.) I think you’ll find those laws are more honored in the breach than the observance in most cases anyway. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/33 "2015-04-24T19:37:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Women aren’t really much more pro choice than men. possibly two percentage points if you just look at the most recent data, but that’s easily attributable to partisan loyalty. No; 8.5%, much more than 2%. From the [2014 Gallup poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-pro-life.aspx): “Pro-choice” “Pro life” Men           44             51 Women     50             41 > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Also I also don’t see why so many women seem to have abortion as their #1 issue they fight for . I think there are many other issues more important. (I’m a guy) I’m also a guy and abortion is one of my very least important issues. 😃 BUT I’m very astounded at the surprise that it might be a VERY important issue for women. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/34 "2015-04-24T20:49:04Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > … > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but based on my decades old learning about the Canadian/British parliamentary system - unlike the US system, the bills being passed by parliaments have a purpose. That is, a bill specifically aims to do a specific task. (Although “omnibus bills” addressing multiple tasks at once, have become more common). Amendments must either be approved by the sponsor of the bill (usually the government) and/or relate to the purpose of the bill. You cannot tack for example, “health care money cannot be spent on abortion” on a road funding bill, nor can you tack “build a bridge to nowhere” or “make pot legal” clause onto a bill to create a university in Walla Walla. regardless, in most parliaments the addition of clauses is strictly controlled by the government. The anarchy and chaos of US congressional politics seems very odd from up here. As a result, if someone wants a bill to change the law (or lack) surrounding abortion, they need to draft a specific bill and get it onto the list for parliament, not play random amendment games. > > … This kind of nonsense (along with the Canadian single and the Canadian bacon controversies) are why the U.S. needs to invade Canada and teach Canadians a lesson! 😉 (Just joking, but actually, you’ve made me quite jealous. Is there room for one more family in the warm part of Canada?) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/35 "2015-04-24T21:25:08Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Do Northern Irishwomen getting abortions in Great Britain have access to the NHS Ruadh nailed it with “nope”, but I’ll expand a little. The NHS isn’t really “National” as such. It’s divided up into various regional entities, either because legislative powers are devolved (NI, Scotland and Wales) or to break the English regions down into smaller, supposedly more manageable units. Anyway, the relevance to the question is that NHS funding for services rendered is paid for by the patient’s home region - based on where you are registered with your GP, basically. What this means is that the NHS in Northern Ireland will not pay for abortions that the other NHS regions will pay for. It’s not a Catholic thing either, lest anyone raise that like in some other posts in the thread. The decidedly non-Catholic DUP has members sitting who think that rape victims should be denied abortions. NI politics is a bit strange. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/36 "2015-04-24T21:48:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I’m also a guy and abortion is one of my very least important issues. 😃 BUT I’m very astounded at the surprise that it might be a VERY important issue for women. It’s also a VERY important issue for some men, in the same way that marriage equality is a VERY important issue for some straight people. Some people believe passionately in equality, whether it would affect them personally or not. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/37 "2015-04-24T22:35:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > I’m also a guy and abortion is one of my very least important issues. 😃 BUT I’m very astounded at the surprise that it might be a VERY important issue for women. > [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > It’s also a VERY important issue for some men, in the same way that marriage equality is a VERY important issue for some straight people. Some people believe passionately in equality, whether it would affect them personally or not. From a more self interested perspective, while I am a male, I have a daughter and 4 nieces, of whom I am quite fond. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/38 "2015-04-24T22:45:10Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > To answer the second question more concisely: what many women fight for isn’t the right to abortion. It’s the right to sovereignty over their own bodies. Yet you nearly never hear these same women protesting the government forbidding them to take illegal drugs or sell sex for money. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/39 "2015-04-25T00:51:20Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Yet you nearly never hear these same women protesting the government forbidding them to take illegal drugs or sell sex for money. :rolleyes: Yeah, elf kin, I hear you. What is it about all these women who have, or have not, children? They really should all be protesting about drugs and prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379/40 "2015-04-25T00:55:36Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No; 8.5%, much more than 2%. From the [2014 Gallup poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-pro-life.aspx): > > ``` > "Pro-choice" "Pro life" > > ``` > > Men 44 51 > Women 50 41 > I’m also a guy and abortion is one of my very least important issues. 😃 BUT I’m very astounded at the surprise that it might be a VERY important issue for women. Fair enough, I got the conclusions of that poll wrong. You do realize the Gallup survey from last year was an outlier from the broad trend over the last couple decades though. The General Social Survey, which is probably the most widely used source for a whole varity of studies on public opinion, has been asking about abortion opinion for 30 years now, and haven’t found any consistent gender differences in opinions about abortion. (Abortion opinions are strongly influenced by religiosity and by education, not by gender per se.) > **[Men have been more pro-choice over the past 30 years](https://www.unz.com/gnxp/men-have-been-more-pro-choice-over-the-past-30-years/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=men-have-been-more-pro-choice-over-the-past-30-years)** > > One of the weird things that annoys me about American politics is the idea that support for abortion rights is particular in some way to women. This is very common on the Left side of the political spectrum, but strangely for the self-described \\ > **[Opinion | The Abortion Stereotype (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/03/opinion/the-abortion-stereotype.html?_r=0)** > > Think of it less as a “war on women,” and more as a war among them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outside-the-us-are-there-big-battles-over-abortion/718379.md?page=3)