# Oven "Sabbath Feature"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 25, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619 "2004-12-25T22:20:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/1 "2004-12-25T22:20:50Z")
My parents have, since the last time I visited them, replaced their old range with a newfangled GE convection range. I was flipping through the manual today and noticed a section on the “Sabbath feature”. I understand the note that heads the section about how to remove the light which would otherwise turn on automatically when opening the door, but other than that I’m stumped.
If turning on a light is out – even incidentally by opening the oven door – then why isn’t turning on and off lights by pushing the delay selector until “SAbbAtH” appears? Is that meant to be done beforehand? It seems that when setting up for regular baking, no signal or temperature display will show up when you set it, but setting a timer _will_ display a time. Why is one allowed and the other not? Since the heating element and the filament in a light bulb are essentially the same thing, why is the one allowed and the other not? Why can this be used for baking or roasting, but not for convection, broiling, self-cleaning, or delayed starts?
Even if there are reasons that one side is technically allowed and the other is technically disallowed, isn’t modifying the display for technical compliance with the literal rules just “gaming the system”, and weaselling out of the spirit of the law: the admonition to do no work on the sabbath?
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### Author:  [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/2 "2004-12-25T22:42:25Z")
So long as the programming inputs are accomplished prior to the beginning of the Sabbath, all is good. ;j
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [December 25, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/3 "2004-12-25T23:09:26Z")
This kind of “weaselling” isn’t limited to ovens, though. It included bits like arranging for elevators to stop at each floor (thus you can ride it without doing the “work” of pushing buttons) and putting a long string around groups of houses, symbolically making the entire area one big house which means certain work-like activities can be “inside”.
I’m pretty sure God isn’t fooled, which has always made the exercise seem especially pointless to me.
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### Author:  [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/4 "2004-12-26T00:29:03Z")
It isn’t “gaming the system”. One isn’t supposed to perform creative or destructive work on the Sabbath. That doesn’t mean that you are supposed to sit in the dark, freezing and hungry.
This [press release](http://emailwire.com/news/hou2333.shtml) includes a description of the Sabbath Mode. Among other things, it disables a 12-hour timer that would automatically shut off the power after 12 hours of continuous operation, which would be a major inconvenience for someone using the range to keep food warm over the Sabbath.
As a general rule, there is nothing wrong with letting a machine operate autonomously on the Sabbath, like a thermostat for heating/air-conditioning, a wall clock, an electric light timer or a refrigerator.
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### Author:  [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/5 "2004-12-26T16:48:01Z")
> [@mks57](#):
>
> It isn’t “gaming the system”. One isn’t supposed to perform creative or destructive work on the Sabbath. That doesn’t mean that you are supposed to sit in the dark, freezing and hungry.
>
> This [press release](http://emailwire.com/news/hou2333.shtml) includes a description of the Sabbath Mode. Among other things, it disables a 12-hour timer that would automatically shut off the power after 12 hours of continuous operation, which would be a major inconvenience for someone using the range to keep food warm over the Sabbath.
>
> As a general rule, there is nothing wrong with letting a machine operate autonomously on the Sabbath, like a thermostat for heating/air-conditioning, a wall clock, an electric light timer or a refrigerator.
Another bit I’d forgotten to mention is the randomized start delay. When you start the oven cooking in Sabbath mode, it randomly delays between 30 and 60 seconds. This smells awfully strongly of a technicality – just because you don’t know _exactly_ when it’s going to turn on doesn’t (to me) mean you’ve any less turned it on.
Disabling an automatic shutoff is one thing, but why set it to turn off lights and icons for setting the temperature while leaving them on for setting a timer?
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### Author:  [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/6 "2004-12-26T16:51:43Z")
But in this case the letter of the law is the spirit of the law, and so the law is being observed.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/7 "2004-12-26T17:13:26Z")
> [@MathoChrist](#):
>
> in Sabbath mode, it randomly delays between 30 and 60 seconds.
Is driving also out on the Sabbath?
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### Author:  [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/8 "2004-12-26T17:22:07Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> Is driving also out on the Sabbath?
According to the traditional view of Jewish law, yes. The American Conservative Movement made a limited exception for traveling to/from the synagogue.
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### Author:  [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/9 "2004-12-26T23:22:13Z")
If you haven’t already, check out the chapter “Is Electricity Fire?” in the book _Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman._ He talks about the issue with the elevator buttons. In his telling, the issue was that Orthodox Jews can’t “make a fire” on the Sabbath. Feynman told them that no, electricity is not fire, and that if they were concerned about a spark, they could put a capacitor across the switch. For some reason that was less satisfactory, ethically, to them than having a goyim push the buttons for them. Feynman tried to pin them down by questioning the ethics of having someone do something unethical for you, but apparently the question had been discussed for centuries in the Talmud and they had answers to all his objections.
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### Author:  [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)
#### Post date: [December 26, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/10 "2004-12-26T23:41:09Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#):
>
> Feynman tried to pin them down by questioning the ethics of having someone do something unethical for you, but apparently the question had been discussed for centuries in the Talmud and they had answers to all his objections.
Wait, I thought that there was also a prohibition on having anyone in one’s house (say, servants) do any work either. Since an elevator operator would be a (temporary) servant, wouldn’t this count?
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### Author:  [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/11 "2004-12-27T00:19:47Z")
> [@Mathochist](#):
>
> Wait, I thought that there was also a prohibition on having anyone in one’s house (say, servants) do any work either. Since an elevator operator would be a (temporary) servant, wouldn’t this count?
If I recall Feynman’s words correctly, the rabbinical students he was arguing with went “twist, turn, twist, and they were free!”. He doesn’t go into the moral reasoning. He leaves the impression that he was unable to counter their sophistry but at the same time remained of the opinion that the whole thing was silly. I’m not sure if I think the whole thing was silly, but I’m sure Feynman did.
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### Author:  [@mcott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcott)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/12 "2004-12-27T02:34:38Z")
Interesting bit in Wired can be found here:
[The Geek Guide to Kosher Machines](http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html)
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### Author:  [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/13 "2004-12-27T07:31:08Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> Is driving also out on the Sabbath?
Of course not. How are all the doctors to keep up with their long game without practice?
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### Author:  [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/14 "2006-03-17T02:20:07Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#):
>
> So long as the programming inputs are accomplished prior to the beginning of the Sabbath, all is good. ;j
So the oven is programmed, BIG DEAL!
What about opening/closing oven door?
What about inserting/removing the food to be cooked?
Sheesh ! :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/15 "2006-03-17T04:01:02Z")
Does it really matter? From an anthropologist’s view, one of the functions of such rules is to maintain a certain amount of cohesiveness in a group and distinguish themselves from others. In older times the Sabbath would have been your only day off work, and Sabbath rules make it harder to spend those days causing trouble and getting involved with people in other communities. Complicated interpretations of the rules still serve the same function, and a Jew who tapes down the fridge door light on Friday is still more likely to be religious twenty years later (and have kids who grow up to be religious) than the one who doesn’t.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oven-sabbath-feature/281619/16 "2006-03-17T04:31:43Z")
**spingears**. You’re not a new poster here.
How in the world you decided to open a two year old thread, I don’t know. And I don’t care.
Don’t do it again.
**samclem**