Over 1,000 People Killed by U.S. Police so far this Year

[Acsenray]

Well there was actually the “I don’t have time for this bullshit” killing when a cop murdered a developmentally disabled person recently.

[drachillix]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

They need more tools in their tool box for diffusing situations and rendering help. What if it was firefighters or EMTs who had first encountered the man? What would they have done since shooting him wasn’t an option?

Ex-EMT

We would have pulled back and called in PD. If we were for some reason unable to disengage, we would defend ourselves by any means at our disposal if that meant hitting him with something heavy that might kill or severely injure him, so be it.

Something many people fail to get with these situations, that EMS folks understand intimately. People are crippled or killed by single knife wounds on a regular basis. Its not somehow less of a big deal because its just a knife. Taking a swipe at someone with a knife of any meaningful size is no different than firing a gun, they are equivalent levels of force. Guns offer range and in some cases greater penetration, but someone trying to stab you is trying to kill you.

Imagine if you will a couple amateur boxers. How often do they make meaningful contact when fighting? Now remove their gloves and give them each a 4" knife. That fight will be over in 10-15 seconds tops and one of them is dead or serious chance of bleed out before help can arrive.

[drachillix]

@handsomeharry

Well put, UncleRojelio-about time these bleeding hearts understand that our tax dollars are to keep the cops safe and happy, not the other way around!

Emergency services Rule #1

Go home to your family after your shift.

[drachillix]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Cops should respond to criminals differently than someone who is mentally ill. Not a lack of response to the ill, but a response that takes into account what’s going on with them. I can’t imagine this is a controversial stance.

In the few seconds that you have to make a decision, they look the same.

[drachillix]

Also consider this

if about 1000 people were killed by police officers out of 400 million US residents you get roughly a 1 in 400,000 chance of being killed by a police officer.

there are about 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the US. 133 have been killed this year, 33 by stabbing or gunfire. This gives you about 1 in 27000 cops are killed by stabbing or gunfire in the line of duty.

A cop is about 15 times more likely to be killed by a citizen than the average citizen is by a cop.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

@drachillix

In the few seconds that you have to make a decision, they look the same.

I know. Of course, I’m not stupid.

Christ, I was specifically referring to this scenario (and and by extension others) where they already were attempting non lethal methods so clearly were not in fear for their lives, as the article in the OP described. I addressed all this on page one. I mentioned multiple times that this only works if no one is in danger in the house and if the cops can exit safely.

I’m not interested in repeating what wrote over and over again so I’ll leave the debate to everyone else.

We have a documented huge problem in this country. Eric Holder just announced that Cleveland PD has been found to have institutional problems with overuse of force and is implementing new training to teach cops how to do this better. The chief of the NYPD today announced new training to teach cops how better to de-escalate situations to avoid lethal force. Knee jerk protecting the police does no one any good. Distrust of cops makes for increased danger for everyone. This is not a problem civilians can fix simply by being better do-bees. Cops have to analyze their own behavior too and figure what they can do. Trust is broken. It must be rebuilt and the first step is acknowledging we have a huge problem.

@drachillix

Also consider this

if about 1000 people were killed by police officers out of 400 million US residents you get roughly a 1 in 400,000 chance of being killed by a police officer.

there are about 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the US. 133 have been killed this year, 33 by stabbing or gunfire. This gives you about 1 in 27000 cops are killed by stabbing or gunfire in the line of duty.

A cop is about 15 times more likely to be killed by a citizen than the average citizen is by a cop.

Why would that surprise you? We pay and honor cops for going where the danger is. Doesn’t mean they should have a reasonable fear that everyone they encounter is dangerous! A rookie cop on routine parole killed a civilian here just a couple weeks ago in a high rise stair well. Person was just walking down the stairs and the cop was patrolling with his gun out (against policy) got spooked and shot the guy. He was doing nothing. Just walking down the stairs.

[bengangmo]

@Shodan

So having learned that he is violently insane, and a danger to himself and others, he needs to be taken into custody. So there is every reason in the world to not retreat.

You do understand what generally happens in a police welfare check, don’t you? Someone, in this case the man’s family, calls up the police and says that someone else may present a danger to himself or others. In fact, in this case it was because he was refusing to take his medications. So the police go to that person’s last known address and check if they are all right. If the person attacks them with a machete, that is usually one of the warning signs that they are not, in fact, all right.
No, I am not. I am pointing out what I would have thought was obvious in a thread discussing cases where the police killed someone - it matters not whether the person coming at you screaming is doing so because he is a bad person, or because he is crazier than a shithouse rat - you are still being attacked with a machete, and need to take steps, which may include bean bag rounds or real bullets, but do not include letting him off with a warning (or running away and hiding) because he couldn’t help himself.

Regards,
Shodan

So they shot him to prevent him from harming himself?

Nobody is asking the police to go away and come back the next day -

But why couldn’t they go outside, call a social worker, watch him for a while - it seems that their presence was agitating him, so why not remove that agitation but still watch and wait?

[bengangmo]

@drachillix

In the few seconds that you have to make a decision, they look the same.

Except that when they arrived at the house, they already knew the occupant was mentally ill - so they didn’t have to evaluate and reach a decision in a few seconds

[bengangmo]

[quote=“Shodan, post:55, topic:706211”]

OK, please describe how the police should respond to a criminal who attacks them with a machete vs. a mentally ill person who attacks them with a machete.

@Shodan

Should the police take four hours, Shodan

YES

@Shodan

call in a special negotiator, and Shodan

YES

@Shodan

use non-lethal rounds first? Shodan

YES

@Shodan

Should they send in the mental health unit first, and only call in the cops when that fails? Shodan

YES

@Shodan

Should they attempt to negotiate for hours? Shodan

YES

@Shodan

Should they try to get people to take their meds? Shodan

YES
Of course, if they do that they might miss the game, earn a bit of overtime pay or get scolded by their wives for being late for dinner, so I guess the less troublesome option is just to shoot the poor deranged bastard

[RTFirefly]

@Shodan

OK, please describe how the police should respond to a criminal who attacks them with a machete vs. a mentally ill person who attacks them with a machete.

Should the police take four hours, call in a special negotiator, and use non-lethal rounds first? <snip> Should they attempt to negotiate for hours?

If the alternative is shooting him dead, then yes, of course. No-brainer. SATSQ.

Do you not believe that the life of even a mentally deranged person is worth that much effort?

[BOOM]

I’d really like to see this reported ‘machete’ - evidence bags are transparent, right?

Creates a really effective image in the mind. I see the dead person hit the cop with this machete but have not yet see a report of a cop being injured, at all?

[Shodan]

@bengangmo

So they shot him to prevent him from harming himself?

Perhaps if you had included the next two words after what you bolded, you would not have said something as silly as this.

Nobody is asking the police to go away and come back the next day

Is it really too difficult to say ‘you know what, we’ll come back tomorrow when you’ve calmed down a bit’.

So that’s wrong too.

But why couldn’t they go outside, call a social worker, watch him for a while - it seems that their presence was agitating him, so why not remove that agitation but still watch and wait?

They did all these things. So you are 0 for 3.

And bengangmo - the police did all of the things I mentioned. So the idea thatthe police shot him just to save time and trouble, and if they hadn’t it may have worked out better is wrong.

Regards,
Shodan

[Doctor_Jackson]

@RTFirefly

I note that this is something you’re bringing into the conversation, Doctor Jackson, and doesn’t necessarily reflect your own opinion.

But that said, one must wonder why “police officers feel they are increasingly under attack from the public.”

Thanks RTF, that is exactly why I posted those quotes - to try and get people to discuss the reality of how rarely this happens and the “why” behind it. With facts. I guess one off anecdotes, kneejerk reactions and random opinion is more fun. Nice try anyway.

More facts (PDF warning) from the Bureau of Justice Statistics:

About 93% of black homicide victimsand 85% of white victims in single victim and single offender homicides were murdered by someone of their race.

Shouldn’t the outrage be directed toward citizen-on-citizen homicide? Nah, that happens all the time and we’re too jaded. Better to senationalize something that happens rarely. My cite for that assertion? A nationally known civil rights activist made the same point with the same stats at a rally in Atlanta last week and was boooed loudly by the crowd. Sad.

[Mr.Nylock]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

Not if there’s no intent. Really, if someone having an epileptic seizure strikes a police officer it’s a crime? Don’t be willfully oblivious. Someone in the throws of delusions is not a criminal.

But the machete they wield will have the same ability to maim or kill someone.

[RTFirefly]

@Doctor_Jackson

Shouldn’t the outrage be directed toward citizen-on-citizen homicide? Nah, that happens all the time and we’re too jaded.

As Jamelle Bouie points out, that outrage is quite alive, in the black community at least:

it’s easy to find examples of marches and demonstrations against crime. In the last four years, blacks have held community protests against violence in Chicago; New York; Newark, New Jersey; Pittsburgh; Saginaw, Michigan; and Gary, Indiana. Indeed, there’s a whole catalog of movies, albums, and sermons from a generation of directors, musicians, and religious leaders, each urging peace and order. You may not have noticed black protests against crime and violence, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t happened. Black Americans—like everyone else—are concerned with what happens in their communities, and at a certain point, pundits who insist otherwise are either lying or willfully ignorant.

Bouie continues:

it’s worth noting the extent to which “what about black-on-black crime” is an evasion, an attempt to avoid the fundamental difference between being killed by a citizen and being killed by an agent of law. And it’s not new. “When Ida B. Wells … tried to explain to a wealthy suffragist in Chicago that anti-black violence in the nation must end,” writes historian Khalil Gibran Muhammad for The Nation, “Mary Plummer replied: Blacks need to “drive the criminals out” of the community. ‘Have you forgotten that 10 percent of all the crimes that were committed in Chicago last year were by colored men [less than 3 percent of the population]?’ ”

Regardless of cause or concern, a community doesn’t forfeit fair treatment because it has crime. That was true then when the scourge was lynching, and it’s true now that the scourge is unjust police violence. Say what you will about “black-on-black crime,” just don’t pretend it has anything to do with unfair killings at the hands of the state.

QFT. I almost always prefer to quote facts, and make my own arguments. But I can’t improve on that.

[BOOM]

@Mr.Nylock

But the machete they wield will have the same ability to maim or kill someone.

He’s making a legal point, you’re making a cheap point. He won.

[RTFirefly]

Missed the edit window while my computer froze. A link to the Jamelle Bouie piece I quoted.

[Doctor_Jackson]

@RTFirefly

As Jamelle Bouie points out, that outrage is quite alive, in the black community at least:

Bouie continues:
QFT. I almost always prefer to quote facts, and make my own arguments. But I can’t improve on that.

Please don’t think I’m belittling the events in Ferguson, by any measure it is a tragedy where one life was ended and many were changed forever. I don’t know enough of the facts to determine who was wrong, my experience says there is enough blame to go around. And I am aware of sporatic, community based protests against crime in general - but those are exactly that - local and sporatic. The shooting in Ferguson and the incident in NY are a national obsession and flash point. Even if we permanently solved the issue of police of one race shooting civilians of another, we would have made a very small dent in homicide deaths.

[Reyemile]

@cochrane

It’s just not that black-and-white.

pun intended?

[Mr.Nylock]

@BOOM

He’s making a legal point, you’re making a cheap point. He won.

I’ll try to carry on despite this crushing defeat.