# Over-booked flights; What if nobody will relinquish their seat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249 "2005-11-09T18:32:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/41 "2005-11-10T13:00:52Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I can assure you that they will definitely assign two people to the same seat. It happened to me once and I’ve seen it several other times. > > Rule 1: Get to your seat first and stay there. The 2nd person to get to the seat loses. > > Rule 2: Don’t leave the plane until a suitable deal has been struck. They will say over and over “please come with me” etc. _Stay on the plane_. A boarded passenger has more rights than a person at the gate. Don’t fall for tricks like “Okay, you win, come with me back to the gate and you’ll get an upgrade.” They can bring you your upgrade to the plane. > > Rule 3: Be nice but firm. Being a jerk can allow them to call TSA and you’re in hell from then on. This worked for me the only time I was told I was bumped. I was already in the seat and I politely but (very) firmly told the steward I was staying until I was physically removed—this was years before the terrorist stuff; I know I couldn’t get away with it now. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/42 "2005-11-10T14:54:54Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Seems like a lot of bs could be avoided, you simply make the rule that if you’re there first, the seat is yours. The stuff about FF travelers/etc is bs. > > Just because you fly a lot doesn’t mean your money is greener. FF travelers SHOULD have a preference. It’s all about brand loyalty and reward/expense. I am a computer guy, I support a variety of products for a variety of different customers. If a customer that spends $100,000 / year with me calls for my help, and I also get a call from a customer that spends $1,000 / year with me, guess who I’m going to go help first. I also apply the same rule to “how respectful/nice/etc” someone is, when determining my priorities. Piss me off, and you’re on the bottom of the list, I go home at 5PM. Treat me well, and I’ll work onsite all night. Of course, in a perfect world, we’d use FIFO (first in, first out), but in reality it just doesn’t work that way. You prioritize each case, and spend your resources on the one that will give you the most gain. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/43 "2005-11-10T15:45:57Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I’m glad this thread was opened. Because I still don’t get it. > > Say there are 100 seats. They book 110 because statistically they expect 10 no-shows. But the no-shows didn’t happen. > > So, why screw with the 100 already seated? Why not just accomodate/bump the 10 late comers. In other words, give them the “perks” you would give the so-called volunteers. > > Seems like a lot of bs could be avoided, you simply make the rule that if you’re there first, the seat is yours. The stuff about FF travelers/etc is bs. > > Just because you fly a lot doesn’t mean your money is greener. > > This last minute hullabaloo at gates costs money. Isn’t there some basic business tenet that states you don’t spend 20% of your costs on 5% of the problems? The “basic business tenet” is known as “keeping the customer happy.” And you want to keep your best customers, the frequent flyers, the happiest. After that, you can keep the remaining customers the happiest by rewarding them for volunteering - they feel they got a deal, _and_ it was their choice - rather than bumping them involuntarily. If someone is one of the last ones to arrive, and are bumped even though they had a valid ticket, they are going to be upset even if they are compensated because it was the _airlines choice_ to overbook. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/44 "2005-11-10T16:17:00Z")
I was once on an overbooked flight from Montreal to Barbados. There is only flight a week and being bumped means missing one day of your vacation and having to get up early the next day for a flight to Toronto (a reall horror of an airport). This was in Feb. 2002 and as a result of 9/11, we were told to get there early, which I did, about 2 hours before scheduled takeoff. My wife and I got our boarding passes, but people who arrived not much later than us were put on standby. Some of them got to fly first class and some got to go to Toronto the next morning. They did make a very attractive offer to volunteers, but didn’t get any. One of the standbys asked the gate attendant how she chose who got boarded and she astonished my by admitting that they did it in order of how you had paid for your ticket! Obviously, they didn’t do this systematically since we were boarded and we have bought the tickets rather cheaply the previous August. The moral is that if there is any danger of overbooking, get there early. I have no idea what this all means now that you can print your own boarding pass the day before. I guess it is good to do that just as early as they will let you. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/45 "2005-11-10T16:53:28Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > Broken record time: > Anybody got an idea on who is important enough (from the airline’s perspective) to bump another passenger? I’ve now become obsessed with this, apparently. I wouldn’t know. Years ago a friend of mine who was part of a french delegation to an international conference was denied flying along with her colleagues, while tourists were boarding the plane. There wasn’t amongst them any very high ranking official, though, but it seems that they being on an official duty as opposed to go spending some days lying on the beach was irrelevant and whatever rule the airline used to determine who would be bumped was just applied. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/46 "2005-11-10T17:05:53Z")
If the passengers on the over-booked flight that must relinquish their seat are hot supermodels, I am in favor of mud-wrestling to determine who will relinquish her seat. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/47 "2005-11-10T17:08:09Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Say there are 100 seats. They book 110 because statistically they expect 10 no-shows. But the no-shows didn’t happen. > > So, why screw with the 100 already seated? Why not just accomodate/bump the 10 late comers. In other words, give them the “perks” you would give the so-called volunteers. Because the late comers might be pissed off, regardless of what perks are offered, since for one reason or another, they really, really want/need to fly right now. Also, they can be pissed off just because it’s imposed on them, even though they don’t care that much about flying right now, and could demand more than the perks offered, argue with the staff, etc… On the other hand, volunteers are just that. They think that X dollars is worth not flying right now, and they agreed to the deal, so aren’t going to complain. And other passengers who wanted to take this flight and do take it will be happy too. ---
**Author:** ![jsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@jsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsmith)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/48 "2005-11-10T22:48:32Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > I’ve been watching a program called Airline on A&E which shows the events at various Southwest Airlines gates around the country. They definitely show the most interesting activity, and sometimes this involves people being denied boarding due to overbooked flights. The gate agents definitely do make a value judgement, so that someone flying to New York to catch an international flight or someone flying to Miami to start a cruise trip will get priority over someone flying home to New York or Miami. I have also seen the show on A&E a couple of times. One of the most memorable was a lady who showed up after boarding and explained she was going to a wedding and had to be there. The ticket agent looked through the manifest and picked a passenger, went on the plane and found the passenger, and told him to get off the plane. Definitely a value/judgement call. He wasn’t too happy. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/49 "2005-11-11T00:47:21Z")
In high school, I was flying down to LAX from SFO with my Mom to go visit colleges, and we appaently got on a _very_ overbooked flight. They needed something like 12 volunteers to not go. By the time they got enough, the offer was up to something like: A flight the next morning, first class. A hotel room for the night. A voucher to fly anywhere in the Continental US in the next year, and $300 cash. We couldn’t take the flight the next morning because I had an interview appointment, but once they got up to $150 cash (and all the rest), I tried to talk my Mom into taking it. After all, it was only about 7pm. I could _drive_ to LA and still get in around 1am. No deal. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/50 "2005-11-11T00:55:50Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > Last to check in for the flight, first to be booted involuntarily. I believe they start with the Coach tickets, naturally, not First or Business. Er, do they overbook first class? Or do they at least do so less frequently then coach? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/51 "2005-11-11T02:43:10Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Just because you fly a lot doesn’t mean your money is greener. It’s not the same scenario as the OP, but here is an example from just last week as to the importance airlines place on FF status. I was traveling with two colleagues, one a Million Miler, one no status. I am Gold Medallion. We arrived at the airport early for our flight home and an earlier flight had not yet left. Although the earlier flight was full, the Million Miler was offered a standby ticket when he checked in. The other two of us were not - the alternative flight was not mentioned. Undaunted, we went to the gate of the earlier flight. The gate agent told me the flight was full, but looked at my boarding pass, noticed “Gold Medallion”, said “just a moment” and 30 seonds later I was on the standby list in 4th position, having jumped over about 8 others already on the list (I made it on the flight). My no-status colleague was told “the flight is full”. Nobody was actually bumped for us, but I have very little doubt that in a bumping situation, it is not a frequent flyer who is going to be turfed off the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/52 "2005-11-11T03:02:44Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I’m glad this thread was opened. Because I still don’t get it. > > Say there are 100 seats. They book 110 because statistically they expect 10 no-shows. But the no-shows didn’t happen. > > So, why screw with the 100 already seated? The bumping takes place **before** anyone is boarded. ---
**Author:** ![Cillasi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Cillasi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cillasi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/53 "2005-11-11T03:21:05Z")
Actually, the person who makes the most noise usually loses. The flight attendants have a hard enough job without people yelling, screaming and refusing to listen to reason. Usually, the “come with me” means they are going to seat you in first or business class where they probably have empty seats, not put you off the plane, especially if you are being quiet and polite instead of rude and obnoxious. I’ve had it happen to me more than once and have seen it happen numerous times. I’ve also witnessed first hand that the flight attendants can be quite vindictive toward the passenger who gives them problems. Every time I’ve seen duplicate seating happen, the “quiet” passenger ends up with a better seat or the rude passenger ends up in the back row in the corner in the dark. If both passengers are being argumentative, they may both be sent back to the gate for it to be “officially” sorted out. > [@ftg](#): > > I can assure you that they will definitely assign two people to the same seat. It happened to me once and I’ve seen it several other times. > > Rule 1: Get to your seat first and stay there. The 2nd person to get to the seat loses. > > Rule 2: Don’t leave the plane until a suitable deal has been struck. They will say over and over “please come with me” etc. _Stay on the plane_. A boarded passenger has more rights than a person at the gate. Don’t fall for tricks like “Okay, you win, come with me back to the gate and you’ll get an upgrade.” They can bring you your upgrade to the plane. > > Rule 3: Be nice but firm. Being a jerk can allow them to call TSA and you’re in hell from then on. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/54 "2005-11-11T15:08:32Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Er, do they overbook first class? Or do they at least do so less frequently then coach? Even if they only have 8-10 seats in first class, it would be pretty unusual to sell them all, never mind overbook them. But it does happen on very busy flights, in which case they would normally bump 1st class down to business, and kick some poor mook out of coach to make room for any displaced folks from Business, and apologise all round. If you’ve paid $2000 for your First ticket, and someone in coach has paid $200, the airline will give you priority. ---
**Author:** ![Squee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@Squee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squee)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/55 "2005-11-11T15:24:12Z")
I guess still don’t understand how they could do this…by purchasing a ticket, you have made a contract stating that you have that seat. Money has changed hands and the terms agreed upon. I have never read through a flight agreement before, but is there something in there saying they can deny you a seat to give to another? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/56 "2005-11-11T15:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=gotpasswords] Membership in the airline’s FF program probably goes into the choosing of who gets yanked. …QUOTE] A tangential comment on this: I did in fact have FF membership help me a few years back. A colleague and I had arrived at the airport early, hoping to go standby on an earlier flight than the one we were supposed to take. When we checked in, the attendant said that there was a wait list of 15 or so people, but that I’d go to the head of the list since I was a member of their FF program. Needless to say, my colleague (who was _not_ a member) signed up for membership immediately! (good thing; as it turned out, the later flight was badly delayed due to weather, which was why we were trying to get on the earlier one). Less tangentially: If you ever do volunteer to be bumped, and they claim they have room for you on xxx later flight, make sure they double-check that. I nearly got stranded the day before Thanksgiving, years ago, when the later flight was also at capacity (I did manage to get onto it). ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/57 "2005-11-11T15:45:20Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > Hmm, my flight from O’Hare to LAX on December 26 on United wouldn’t allow me to reserve a seat. > > But fortunately, it’s on the way home. I’m taking an early flight and I would gladly get bumped for a later flight. I think I’m at ORD around 8 am. United is notorious for this (not allowing prebooking of seats). I got stuck in the middle of a row of 5 seats once that way; I asked for an aisle/window seat and the attendant told me she had a bulkhead seat, with the implication (or she flat-out said) it was an aisle seat. SHe lied. I was stuck in that seat for 3 hours. A colleague who had paid _less_ for his ticket, and arrived at the airport _later_ than I did, got bumped to Business. And no, I wasn’t even remotely obnoxious to anyone. Until I went to my assigned seat and found out the lie. \Every truly bad, uncomfortable flight experience I’ve ever had has been on United. Needless to say I avoid them wherever possible\ ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/58 "2005-11-11T16:30:12Z")
> [@Squee](#): > > I guess still don’t understand how they could do this…by purchasing a ticket, you have made a contract stating that you have that seat. Money has changed hands and the terms agreed upon. I have never read through a flight agreement before, but is there something in there saying they can deny you a seat to give to another? Airlines are like no other ‘business’ you have ever encountered. Trust me, they can kick you off a flight whenever they feel like it, and your only comeback is if you feel they have discriminated agains you unfairly for some reason. For real lunacy, check out the [Warsaw Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention) - if you check in your designer luggage full of designer clothes and irreplaceable family memorabilia and it gets lost on an international flight, you can claim compensation at approximately $24 per kilogram of weight. So you will get less than someone who has lost a suitcase full of second-hand housebricks. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249/59 "2005-11-11T17:15:55Z")
> [@Cillasi](#): > > Actually, the person who makes the most noise usually loses. The flight attendants have a hard enough job without people yelling, screaming and refusing to listen to reason. Usually, the “come with me” means they are going to seat you in first or business class where they probably have empty seats, not put you off the plane, especially if you are being quiet and polite instead of rude and obnoxious. > > I’ve had it happen to me more than once and have seen it happen numerous times. I’ve also witnessed first hand that the flight attendants can be quite vindictive toward the passenger who gives them problems. Every time I’ve seen duplicate seating happen, the “quiet” passenger ends up with a better seat or the rude passenger ends up in the back row in the corner in the dark. If both passengers are being argumentative, they may both be sent back to the gate for it to be “officially” sorted out. This is true not only at the airport, but at every customer oriented business. Take it from someone who’s been a phone jockey & a waiter. If a screaming customer got transferred to me by an underling, it would often come with the caveat “don’t help this rude asshole. He just called to complain,” whereas the measured complaint is always met with a helpful attitude. So Cillasi is right on here. Or I’d be almost certain he is. On a similar vein, don’t be cruel to your waitstaff. They are handling your food. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-booked-flights-what-if-nobody-will-relinquish-their-seat/330249.md?page=2)