# Over the centuries has religion resulted in a net loss of lives? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118 "2017-12-23T05:50:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/41 "2018-01-05T15:47:31Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > It would certainly have been a lot harder for Hitler to find the bloodlines he wanted to exterminate without the documentation of religious affiliation though. Even if there might be some differences in the genetic makeup of Jews and “ethnic Germans” he would have had no way of knowing this. Skull measurements and whatever are not terribly reliable evidence of ancestry! Hmm. I assume you are referring to old church baptismal, birth, or marriage records. While there was (sometimes enthusiastic) cooperation between church “officials” and the Nazi’s, I am not clear that these can be lumped as the fault of religion (especially since no where in the Christian Bible does Christ or his Apostles command the faithful to kill Jews), but rather the fault of humans, who seem to have an unbridled ability to rationalize their own bad behavior or impulses, even though these rationalizations don’t follow any kind of logical sense. There were some German Bishop’s that spoke out against Nazi policies. These men were following their faith and beliefs, too. I am not talking about official church policy (and note: IIRC, these Bishops were not sanctioned by the Church), but an individuals personal faith, put in to action (in the form of sermons). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/42 "2018-01-05T16:11:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s likely that most of the animosity towards the Jews, in Germany, was an influence of Lutheranism. And, of course, the general animosity towards the Jews in Europe (and the US, at the time) was due to Christian belief. > . Plenty of animostity towards Jews in Orthodox Russia. And also by the Muslim world. So, it’s not just Lutheranism (got a cite?) or even Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/43 "2018-01-05T18:48:42Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Hmm. I assume you are referring to old church baptismal, birth, or marriage records. While there was (sometimes enthusiastic) cooperation between church “officials” and the Nazi’s, I am not clear that these can be lumped as the fault of religion (especially since no where in the Christian Bible does Christ or his Apostles command the faithful to kill Jews), but rather the fault of humans, who seem to have an unbridled ability to rationalize their own bad behavior or impulses, even though these rationalizations don’t follow any kind of logical sense. > > There were some German Bishop’s that spoke out against Nazi policies. These men were following their faith and beliefs, too. I am not talking about official church policy (and note: IIRC, these Bishops were not sanctioned by the Church), but an individuals personal faith, put in to action (in the form of sermons). The Pope did sanction those statements by the Bishops. What recent scholarship has confirmed is that not only did Pope Pius actively cooperate with the Allies in routing intelligence information to them, but that he actually green-lighted several assassination attempts against Hitler. There was extensive theological discussion as to whether assassination of a tyrant was permissible under St. Thomas Aquinas’s “Just Warfare” doctrine, and the Pope finally decided it was and provided material and financial assistance to the plotters. The Pope, who had been the Vatican’s ambassador to Germany, was under no illusions about Hitler, National Socialism, and what he intended for Catholicism. The best book on this subject is the extensively documented “Church of Spies: The Pope’s Secret War Against Hitler” by Mark Riebling, which is largely based on original transcripts from the Vatican’s archives from wire recordings that were placed throughout the Vatican’s offices - the surveillance set up was created by the inventor of radio, Marconi. The Pope was concerned that in meetings with the German and Italian ambassadors, they could later claim that agreements were made that were not, so like Nixon (but with higher motives) he began recording all conversations with diplomatic personnel. The Pope’s own letters and encyclicals against Nazi policies were read throughout Germany and Austria from the pulpits, so it’s not like they weren’t considered officially sanctioned. They also enraged Hitler, but stirred up enough anger in the German Catholic population that the Nazis suspended, initially at least, the euthanasia of the handicapped. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/44 "2018-01-05T20:08:05Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > The Pope did sanction those statements by the Bishops. What recent scholarship has confirmed is that not only did Pope Pius actively cooperate with the Allies in routing intelligence information to them, but that he actually green-lighted several assassination attempts against Hitler. There was extensive theological discussion as to whether assassination of a tyrant was permissible under St. Thomas Aquinas’s “Just Warfare” doctrine, and the Pope finally decided it was and provided material and financial assistance to the plotters. The Pope, who had been the Vatican’s ambassador to Germany, was under no illusions about Hitler, National Socialism, and what he intended for Catholicism. > > The best book on this subject is the extensively documented “Church of Spies: The Pope’s Secret War Against Hitler” by Mark Riebling, which is largely based on original transcripts from the Vatican’s archives from wire recordings that were placed throughout the Vatican’s offices - the surveillance set up was created by the inventor of radio, Marconi. The Pope was concerned that in meetings with the German and Italian ambassadors, they could later claim that agreements were made that were not, so like Nixon (but with higher motives) he began recording all conversations with diplomatic personnel. > > The Pope’s own letters and encyclicals against Nazi policies were read throughout Germany and Austria from the pulpits, so it’s not like they weren’t considered officially sanctioned. They also enraged Hitler, but stirred up enough anger in the German Catholic population that the Nazis suspended, initially at least, the euthanasia of the handicapped. Thanks for your info! Clarification: When I typed “sanctioned”, I meant that the Church did not to seem to punish the Bishops for speaking out against the Nazi’s. I did not realize that “sanction” might also mean the opposite (as in sanction = supporting). Example one, my meaning: “The U.S. took (economic) sanctions against Iran for it’s actions in the Straits of Hormuz on such-and-such date.” Example two, your meaning: “President Obama does not sanction the comments made in an Anti-Muslim movie that appeared on Youtube.” ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/45 "2018-01-05T23:38:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Doctors are pretty common through Japanese history, but they would treat you at your home. > > The Japanese almost certainly had better medical care through most of the Christian era than Europe, despite not having hospitals, because they had better standards of cleanliness, weren’t bleeding people and practicing other invasive nonsense, and weren’t packing sick people and newborns in with each other in hospitals. Do you have a cite for any of this? I’m not saying it’s true or false. I’ll readily admit to knowing absolutely nothing about sanitation and medicine in medieval Japan. I’m wondering where you got your information from. > [@](#): > > How Christian or what branch of Christianity Hitler might have been, be whatever it may, he certainly grew up in a culture influenced by Christianity and Lutheran hate for the Jews. He grew up in heavily Catholic Austria, not among Lutherans. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/46 "2018-01-06T00:51:50Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I’m not sure if you are stating that the Nazi persecution of the Jews was based on religion, or not, but if you are, then I believe you are mistaken. > > The Nazi persecution was ethnic based, not religious. While the below numbers are made up, I would suspect that they are close enough to accurate that it wouldn’t affect my point. Let’s say that in Ancient Greece, homophobia occurred at a 1% rate in the population. Now let’s say that in modern America, 30% of people are homophobic, with Christians at a 33% rate and atheists and agnostics at a 20% rate. If the atheists and agnostics have no more reason to be homophobic than Ancient Grecians, having no religious reason to be so, why would they have a higher rate of homophobia than Ancient Grecians? Obviously, it is not because they are religious. But it would, likely, be because they are from a culture that has had a long history of homophobia due to religion. The Jews were not particularly dark colored. They were generally middle or upper-class. They probably committed crimes at a lower rate than other Germans. Nazi persecution of the Gypsies makes sense from a Nazi-thought paradigm. Nazi persecution of Jews and of homosexuals makes no sense unless you include the general culture that they were born in and how that influenced them into perceiving particular groups. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/47 "2018-01-07T15:06:51Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Thanks for your info! > > Clarification: When I typed “sanctioned”, I meant that the Church did not to seem to punish the Bishops for speaking out against the Nazi’s. I did not realize that “sanction” might also mean the opposite (as in sanction = supporting). > > Example one, my meaning: “The U.S. took (economic) sanctions against Iran for it’s actions in the Straits of Hormuz on such-and-such date.” > > Example two, your meaning: “President Obama does not sanction the comments made in an Anti-Muslim movie that appeared on Youtube.” “Sanction” is an odd word that way, isn’t it? I never really thought about that before. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/48 "2018-01-07T15:55:49Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The Christmas truce of 1914 came close to stopping that war. Except it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/49 "2018-01-07T19:48:10Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > While the below numbers are made up, I would suspect that they are close enough to accurate that it wouldn’t affect my point. Yes, they are entirely made up and thus you have made no point. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/50 "2018-01-08T00:28:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, they are entirely made up and thus you have made no point. Okay, 1% Ancient Greece, 48% religious, 20% unaffiliated. > **[A new poll shows American Muslims are less homophobic than white evangelical...](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/a-new-poll-shows-american-muslims-are-less-homophobic-than-white-evangelical-christians/)** > > So much for the "the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology." ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118/51 "2018-01-08T09:17:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Do you have a cite for any of this? > > I’m not saying it’s true or false. I’ll readily admit to knowing absolutely nothing about sanitation and medicine in medieval Japan. I’m wondering where you got your information from. I couldn’t say where exactly. Different sources, over the years, I assume. Though, I’ll grant, not all of it would have necessarily been completely historical so it is probably worth checking. Average life expectancy, Edo period Japan: 50 Average life expectancy, Georgian period England: 40 > **[HEALTH IN JAPAN: HIGH LIFE EXPECTANCY, HEALTHY DIET AND METABOLIC SYNDROME |...](https://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat23/sub151/item840.html)** > **[A History of Life Expectancy - Local Histories](https://localhistories.org/a-history-of-life-expectancy/)** > > By Tim Lambert Life Expectancy Before the Industrial Revolution We do not know exactly what average life expectancy at birth was in the past (before the 19th century we can only give rough estimates). However, historians think it was about 35 years... General information about sanitary practices in historic Japan: > **[Epidemics and Mortality in Early Modern Japan](https://books.google.com/books?id=nPf_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=plague%2Bjapan%2B-China&source=bl&ots=B5qyhJTJFH&sig=r9zyH9jnD6Rf6asrDEz_OcZX82c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvjeKN_sfYAhVJ4IMKHX4FAKMQ6AEIbjAP#v=onepage&q=plague%20japan%20-China&f=false)** > > Ann Jannetta suggests that Japan's geography and isolation from major world trade routes provided a cordon sanitaire that prevented the worst diseases of the early modern world from penetrating the country before the mid-nineteenth century. Her... The effects of the lack of sanitation in hospitals: > **[Ignaz Semmelweis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis)** > > Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}German: \[ˈɪɡnaːts ˈzɛml̩vaɪs\]; Hungarian: Semmelweis Ignác Fülöp \[ˈsɛmmɛlvɛjs ˈiɡnaːts ˈfyløp\]; 1 July 1818 – 13 August 1865) was a Hungarian physician and scientist of German descent, who was an early pioneer of antiseptic procedures, and was described as the "saviour of ... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-the-centuries-has-religion-resulted-in-a-net-loss-of-lives/805118.md?page=2)