# Overall term to refer to people from the British Isles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 18, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607 "2020-01-18T06:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/81 "2020-01-22T22:07:58Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > How about the Pasty People. For the pastry/sandwich-like dish. Not for skin color, of course. Or Pastians, the Pastese, … On that vein, the Teadious Isles? West Doggerland Heights? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/82 "2020-01-22T22:18:48Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > West Doggerland Heights? Let’s leave doggers out of this. That’s something very different. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/83 "2020-01-23T01:09:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, I phrased it badly. Except a small number of nation-states that have just a single geographic designation as its name, most nation-states have a short name and a long/formal/official name that includes some type of indication of the form of statehood, such as “Republic of” or “Kingdom of,” but in those cases, those are two _names_. I think it’s more correct to say that there’s a distinction between the name for the country, an area of land defined by geography, the ethnicity or culture of the inhabitants, or otherwise, and the name for the state, a political institution established for the government of a country. Thus we have France, Germany, Italy (names of countries) and the French Republic, the Federal Republic of Germany, the Italian Republic (names of states). Sometimes the name of a country is the same as the name of the corresponding state; examples have already been given in this thread and I suggest the USA is another example. The distinction between the name of the country and then name of the state is brought out by the fact that the latter may change but the former rarely does, and by the fact that in many cases the name of the country was established and in common use long before there was any state at all to correspond to it - Ireland, Germany and Italy being prime examples. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I fundamentally don’t understand what Ireland means by calling “Republic of Ireland” a _description_. When I read or hear that, I get the feeling that I’m suddenly unable to understand the English language, because I have no idea what that’s talking about. I can’t conceive of how “Republic of Ireland” isn’t a name. The complication in the Irish case is that, for political reasons, in 1936 the state adopted the name of the country, although it governed only a part of the country (and claimed a right to govern the rest). Also for political reasons, in 1936 it choose not to adopt a name identifying the state as a republic although it was, in substance, a republic. When it was decided, in 1948, to identify the state as a republic, this was acheived not by changing the name of the state (which would have required a constitutional amendment and a referendum) but by adopting an official “description” by parliamentary legislation. The name of the state, however, is unchanged, and is much more used than the description; it is the name that appears on coins, postage stamps, passports, official correspondence and publications, treaties, etc. The description is only used for disambiguation, and in formal contexts the need rarely arises, since there is no other state called “Ireland”. For a few decades official discourse was poisoned slightly, in that the UK refused to accept “Ireland” as the name of the state and usually used “the Irish Republic” (which is neither the name nor the description) while the Irish government insisted on referring to “Great Britain” rather than the United Kingdom. But they have both got over that, fortunately. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/84 "2020-01-23T12:25:14Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > West Doggerland Heights? This is soooo perfect! Love it. “+1” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/85 "2020-01-23T14:05:00Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Let’s leave doggers out of this. That’s something very different. And yet so veddy veddy British. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/86 "2020-01-23T19:40:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In George Orwell’s _1984_, the main character, Winston Smith, lived in London, which was part of a geographical entity called Airstrip One, which was a subdivision of the nation of Oceania, whose global rivals were Eurasia and Eastasia. :smack: Shame on me. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/87 "2020-01-23T20:47:22Z")
And see post 66. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/88 "2020-01-25T04:49:16Z")
If we’re talking about Ireland now, my English friends routinely used the term “bogtrotters.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/89 "2020-01-25T05:10:09Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > If we’re talking about Ireland now, my English friends routinely used the term “bogtrotters.” **Moderator Note** I really don’t think we need to start trotting out every offensive and insulting term for Irish people. Let’s refrain (speaking as an Irish-American). Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/90 "2020-01-25T05:15:45Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > And yet so veddy veddy British. Perhaps this ought to be a thread on its own rather than tangential to this, but that’s an odd (to me) trope I’ve noticed some Americans use. Where does it come from? There’s no conceivable British accent that could sound like that. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/91 "2020-01-25T05:22:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > I really don’t think we need to start trotting out every offensive and insulting term for Irish people. Let’s refrain (speaking as an Irish-American). > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Just to mention, one of my great-grandmothers was a Patrick, so I’m one of the diaspora myself. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/92 "2020-01-25T05:26:28Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Perhaps this ought to be a thread on its own rather than tangential to this, but that’s an odd (to me) trope I’ve noticed some Americans use. Where does it come from? There’s no conceivable British accent that could sound like that. “Veddy, veddy interesting” is the catch phrase of a WWII German character on an American comedy show from the 1960s. (“Laugh-In”). ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/93 "2020-01-25T05:36:37Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > “Veddy, veddy interesting” is the catch phrase of a WWII German character on an American comedy show from the 1960s. (“Laugh-In”). I remember _Laugh-In_ but not Arte Johnson saying, “Veddy veddy.” It was more like “Ver-r-r-ry in-ter-est-ink.,” with “very” drawn out. But it has been awhile since I saw it. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/94 "2020-01-25T05:55:38Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Perhaps this ought to be a thread on its own rather than tangential to this, but that’s an odd (to me) trope I’ve noticed some Americans use. Where does it come from? There’s no conceivable British accent that could sound like that. Parody of a very clipped Noel Cowardesque (already parodic) upper class accent that people may have heard at the pictures? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/95 "2020-01-25T07:13:33Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Parody of a very clipped Noel Cowardesque (already parodic) upper class accent that people may have heard at the pictures? That’s what I wondered. That voice could include an over-enunciated (theatrical projection!) rolled or trilled “r” but I can’t see how anyone could hear a “d” in there. And of course it’s disappeared nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/96 "2020-01-25T15:17:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And Canada and Japan. You had to go there, didn’t you! > **[Name of Canada](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Canada#Use_of_Canada_and_Dominion_of_Canada)** > > While a variety of theories have been postulated for the name of Canada, its origin is now accepted as coming from the St. Lawrence Iroquoian word kanata, meaning 'village' or 'settlement'. In 1535, indigenous inhabitants of the present-day Quebec City region used the word to direct French explorer Jacques Cartier to the village of Stadacona. Cartier later used the word Canada to refer not only to that particular village but to the entire area subject to Donnacona (the chief at Stadacona);\[ Fr... ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/97 "2020-01-25T18:40:17Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > That’s what I wondered. That voice could include an over-enunciated (theatrical projection!) rolled or trilled “r” but I can’t see how anyone could hear a “d” in there. And of course it’s disappeared nowadays. It’s actually a pretty common American English approximation of how trilled or tap "r"s in between vowels sound to our ears. I didn’t quite get it at first, either, as I grew up with Polish which has this type of “r”, but when I realized they are articulated in the same place (or nearly so) in our mouth as our intervocalic "t"s and "d"s in words like “better” and “wetter” (which sound like “bedder” and “wedder” to folks who do not use the intervocalic aveolar flap), then it started to make a bit more sense. Even the IPA symbol for the “tt” sound in the American (and many other) pronunciations of “better” looks like a modified “r.” [See voiced alveolar tap.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_and_alveolar_taps_and_flaps) [There’s a little more info here I just dug up](https://books.google.com/books?id=m9pF9oWXnCcC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=intervocalic+alveolar+tap+%22veddy%22&source=bl&ots=fhh-ukVsm5&sig=ACfU3U13givf0eB5kBJYldw0B4_pwoPs4A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYocyBsp_nAhUTXM0KHUFhCYsQ6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=intervocalic%20alveolar%20tap%20%22veddy%22&f=false). > [@](#): > > North American English has a nonrhotic flap that occurs as a variety of [t] and [d] when intervocalic and posttonic (between vowels and following the stressed syllable) as in _matter_ [mæɾɚ] and _betting_ [bɛɾɪŋ] > > A rhotic flap is heard in many dialects of British English and, to the American English listener, the word _very_ sounds like _veddy_. I’ve honestly heard this “veddy veddy” more in conjuctions with Easter European accents, like Zsa Zsa Gabor, but same idea. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/98 "2020-01-26T04:08:01Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You had to go there, didn’t you! > > [Name of Canada - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Canada#Use_of_Canada_and_Dominion_of_Canada) I know we’ve been around this block before, my friend, but I can find as much in that article to support me as to support you. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/99 "2020-01-26T05:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > A rhotic flap is heard in many dialects of British English and, to the American English listener, the word very sounds like veddy. We live and learn. Thanks for that: I’ll stop getting into a rhotic flap about it. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607/100 "2020-01-26T05:56:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I know we’ve been around this block before, my friend, but I can find as much in that article to support me as to support you. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overall-term-to-refer-to-people-from-the-british-isles/846607.md?page=6)