# Overcoming Solipsism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778 "2020-04-29T01:00:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/241 "2020-09-29T13:31:53Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Because it’s harder than most people think. Right. So here’s what you gotta do: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z45EB4TiYz4/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAC8AGKAgwIABABGGUgYihJMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBJl_DpjPbLFvt3jmw9ImJkfTipLQ "Accentuate the Positive - Bette Midler & Bing Crosby") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z45EB4TiYz4) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/242 "2020-09-29T13:34:45Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Even any words or symbols we use are constraints. constructs, and false as well - Are those words being used right there _false_, or do you believe that they’re _true?_ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/243 "2020-09-29T13:49:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Are those words being used right there _false_ , or do you believe that they’re _true?_ _You think he doesn’t even mean_ _A single word he says_ _It’s only words and words are all he has_ _To take our hearts away_ ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/244 "2020-09-29T17:31:06Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Indeed, all we can know is that we “experience”, that we are “aware” - beyond that there is no certainty of anything, as to true 100% certainty or empirical provability. > > Even any words or symbols we use are constraints. constructs, and false as well - we cannot recognize (“be aware”, ”experience”) we know anything beyond that we do “have experience”. It’s worth noting that this is incorrect anyway, because it’s ignoring the fact that after you’ve boiled everything down to first principles you can then proceed to take your few accepted knowns and start extrapolating from them again - producing additional results with the same certainty as your accepted knowns. Of course solipsists make this error deliberately, because it’s _fun_ to whine about how nothing exists and nothing is certain. But you should be aware that when people do this they’re lying, essentially - they choose to believe that nothing can be known because they close their eyes and stop up their ears and _try_ to know nothing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/245 "2020-09-29T17:56:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Of course solipsists make this error deliberately, because it’s _fun_ to whine about how nothing exists and nothing is certain. But you should be aware that when people do this they’re lying, essentially - they choose to believe that nothing can be known because they close their eyes and stop up their ears and _try_ to know nothing. Also, if you watch closely — or, really, not even all that closely — you can see that, when they order a sandwich at a deli, and a mistake gets made, they act _as if_ a pastrami on rye with mustard has been placed before them, observing aloud that, _er, no; this isn’t what I asked for._ And then, as soon as the requested sandwich is apologetically served up, they nod and acknowledge that _oh yes that’s it_ and promptly devour the sandwich: acting _as if_ they can tell the difference between the sandwich and the plate it’s on, and acting _as if_ they need to eat food — and have a definite preference for one type of sandwich over another — and are, in fact, perfectly willing to pay a bit more money to get some extra pickles or whatever. It’s _as if_ what they say and what they do differ. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/246 "2020-09-29T18:13:26Z")
A _true_ solipsist (which is to say, one who believes what he says and practices what he preaches) would die of thirst within a few days, sitting in a pile of their own poop. And the obviously dormroom wankery becomes even more obvious when you realize that **Machinaforce** gets most of his solipsism stuff off the internet, which itself is an _overt demonstration_ of how full of shit basic-principles solipsism is. The internet, to put a fine point on it, doesn’t exist. It’s not a physical thing. It’s just data, which is to say information, which is to say it’s the kind of thing that these goofballs are saying doesn’t exist. They say that the information received doesn’t have value (for no reason they can articulate) - if they weren’t liars they would think the same about the internet, only moreso. Anybody who uses the internet for any purpose clearly believes that things constructed from arbitrary information can have absolute real value - that or they’re a moron who doesn’t actually think through anything they say or do. So you can be absolutely 100% certain that anybody who uses the internet to distribute basic-principles solipsistic beliefs is a liar, a conman, or an idiot - or some combination of the three. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/247 "2020-09-29T18:59:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > A _true_ solipsist (which is to say, one who believes what he says and practices what he preaches) would die of thirst within a few days, sitting in a pile of their own poop. It’s like the opposite of that speech from MERCHANT OF VENICE, isn’t it? Oh, sure, the solipsist _acts_ like he hath eyes, what with him stepping out of the way of stuff he _apparently_ sees coming — because he acts like he doesn’t merely eat the same food that I do, but can also be hurt by the same weapons; why, if pricked, does he not bleed? — sure as he sensibly clothes himself differently in a cold winter than he does in a hot summer, and et cetera. But then, having done all of that, he’ll affect a puzzled look and ask aloud whether he hath eyes and so on: he’ll ask if that’s all true about food and bleeding and and the rest; and then he’ll for some reason _go right back to acting sensibly,_ as if he just now saw something of interest and wants to act accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/248 "2020-09-30T03:39:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So you can be absolutely 100% certain that anybody who uses the internet to distribute basic-principles solipsistic beliefs is a liar, a conman, or an idiot - or some combination of the three. Can I get a job doing Solipsist Therapy, where I just slap some sense into those people? … (Although the people who ACTUALLY believe it and live their lives that way? Yeah, that comes to a a whopping total of three, worldwide, so I don’t think I could make a living at it) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/249 "2020-09-30T05:02:11Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Can I get a job doing Solipsist Therapy, where I just slap some sense into those people? [![](https://i.ibb.co/CnMSS1S/solipsism2.jpg) ](https://i.ibb.co/CnMSS1S/solipsism2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/250 "2020-09-30T23:59:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So you can be absolutely 100% certain that anybody who uses the internet to distribute basic-principles solipsistic beliefs is a liar, a conman, or an idiot - or some combination of the three. Disagree. There are earnest and honest people who are simply lost and bewildered. I think this can fall well short of “idiocy” and just be “kinda pointless.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/251 "2020-10-01T14:48:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Disagree. There are earnest and honest people who are simply lost and bewildered. I think this can fall well short of “idiocy” and just be “kinda pointless.” Depends on what we mean by “distributed”, I suppose. What **Machinaforce** is doing, I don’t think qualifies - he’s just asking questions. (Repeatedly.) But these blogs he goes to, where there are whole blogs devoted to collecting and distributing solipsistic theory - they’re either in it for the money, or are too stupid to realize that their approach to solipsism is to toss an object in the air, look at it at its zenith, and declare that because you haven’t seen it come down that gravity has stopped working. (To explain the analogy, I mean that sure, you can note that our perceptions are unreliable. That’s an obvious fact to anybody who wears glasses. But anybody who just _stops_ there, reveling in the uncertainty of it all, either isn’t trying to deduce further or isn’t capable of doing so.) Oh, and I _suppose_ I’ll carve out a tiny possible exception for Buddhists that actually do have coherent worldviews and just suck at explaining themselves. The exception is tiny because I’m pretty sure that if one applied unflinching logical reasoning to their beliefs, most of those theologies wouldn’t hold up too well either. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/252 "2020-10-01T21:27:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But anybody who just _stops_ there, reveling in the uncertainty of it all, either isn’t trying to deduce further or isn’t capable of doing so “Reveling in the uncertainty of it all” is a wonderful way to put it. It’s a fun late-night-around-the-campfire metaphysical game, like “What if we’re just part of The Matrix, or maybe Keanu is dreaming, like that kid on St. Elsewhere?” But hardly anyone tries to live their life this way… that way lies delusion, or at least pointlessness. That’s why I feel sorry for Machinaforce, he’s looking at other people’s “random playing at metaphysics” and trying to take it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/253 "2020-10-02T00:11:37Z")
> [@digs](#): > > But hardly anyone tries to live their life this way… that way lies delusion, or at least pointlessness. Even if I don’t believe in “reality,” I certainly believe in pain and pleasure, and it seems to make the most sense to avoid one and seek the other. I may just be in a Skinner Box with buttons to push – but why the hell would I push the button associated with an electric shock? I think this is **Machinaforce’s** most serious problem: what he is doing _hurts_. As the doctor said in the joke, “Don’t do that.” ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/254 "2020-10-19T03:20:12Z")
> [@digs](#): > > But hardly anyone tries to live their life this way… that way lies delusion, or at least pointlessness. Yes, seconded (squared). It’s similar to discussions about free will and determinism. I’m not entirely certain that I actually have free will (at least in the sense that most of us accept). But I’ll be darned if I’m going to live my life that way! Better to believe in free will and be wrong about it, than to believe you have no free will, right or wrong, at least as I see it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/255 "2020-10-20T19:56:36Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > I’m not entirely certain that I actually have free will (at least in the sense that most of us accept). But I’ll be darned if I’m going to live my life that way! Better to believe in free will and be wrong about it, than to believe you have no free will, right or wrong, at least as I see it. I prefer to recognize that definitions of free will that rely on non-determinism/unpredictability are incoherent and do not conform to common usage. (Since when is something you do at random a choice?) When one constructs a definition of free will that matches common usage and actually makes sense, determinism abruptly ceases to be a problem. Heck, it’s _necessary_. Even if the world is nondeterministic, _I_ am functionally deterministic, because if I was not I would not be a person with meaningful free will. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/256 "2020-10-21T23:58:33Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > I’m not entirely certain that I actually have free will… When I read that I punched the edge of a table, and hurt my hand. Stupid thing to do, with no rational reason to do it. But it was my choice, dammit. And now I’m going to have a bowl of Golden Grahams and a Bud Lite Lime for dinner. I hope you solipsists appreciate all my efforts on behalf of free will… ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/257 "2020-10-22T22:40:46Z")
I think you have to pour the Bud Lite Lime _into_ the corn flakes, like if it was milk, for that to cause free will to happen. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/258 "2020-10-30T17:13:11Z")
If that’s what it would take to shock Machinaforce out of his self-constructed jail cell, heck, I’d pour the dregs of my Finnerty’s Single Malt on a bowl of Lucky Charms! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/259 "2020-10-30T17:56:49Z")
> [@digs](#): > > …Finnerty’s Single Malt on a bowl of Lucky Charms! Now _that_ sounds magically delicious. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2020, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/260 "2020-10-31T02:10:46Z")
I’m _so_ tempted, now… but a peaty Scotch is so inappropriate. Moss and dirt do not go well with those styrofoam by-product “marshmallows”. Now, maybe something smoother… (Tullamore Dew on Cheerios?) Hey, maybe we should start a **Viva La Free Will** challenge, where we all do stupid/dangerous/disgusting/really random activities that no one would ever do in a deterministic world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778.md?page=14)