# Overcoming Solipsism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778 "2020-04-29T01:00:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/161 "2020-07-07T16:52:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > **machinaforce** tries to play the “you don’t understand anything!” card. I’ve simply never seen anyone so obsessed with a philosophy that is generally used by arts-major college students attempting to bore their way into the pants of the girl they’ve been plying with drinks all night. I admire **machinaforce** ’s commitment, but his closing argument is a deal killer, even for a sympathy screw. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/162 "2020-07-07T21:12:42Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > a philosophy that is generally used by arts-major college students… Yeah, all through the many posts by the OP I keep remembering a review of the first Matrix movie that mentioned “dorm room metaphysics”. (Duuude, I was in that dorm! A lot of “Wouldn’t it _totally_ blow your mind if…” discussions, starting around 2 am) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/163 "2020-07-07T21:17:38Z")
> [@digs](#): > > “dorm room metaphysics”. Exactly this. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/164 "2020-07-10T21:19:26Z")
Except the problem is that it is a permanent issue with no solution or evidence in either direction. > **[Is solipsism logically unassailable?](https://www.quora.com/Is-solipsism-logically-unassailable)** > > Answer (1 of 3): That depends on your notion of epistemic responsibility. If our epistemic responsiblity is to simply map our degree of epistemic certainty to the degree of perceived evidential certainty, then solipsism becomes untenable. > > Just as... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/165 "2020-07-10T21:45:53Z")
My advice is – you won’t take it very much to your own detriment, but I’ll give it anyway – don’t read or believe anything that capitalizes “Truth” and “Matter” when it’s in the middle of sentence. It’s bullshit. Dismiss it thus! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/166 "2020-07-10T21:46:11Z")
You already posted that in here, you know. Mr Lodlow’s article is invested in denigrating observable reality, calling it a “nasty piece of experience” and a show, a game, and an apparition. He’s doing this because if a person fails to decide that the grass is greener on the other side the the fence, there’s nothing problematic or scary at all about solipsism and his entire argument collapses in flames - and he knows it. The funny thing is, he never actually says why living in a simulation would be a bad thing - he only mentions _good_ things about it. This is because he can’t actually _think_ of any bad things about it. Can you? (Please keep in mind that it can be shown that under solipsism, both you are real and so is everyone you’re interacting with.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/167 "2020-07-10T21:59:51Z")
It’s also worth noting that everything bad he says about reality is either something unknowable that he is pulling out of his ass, or demonstrably a lie. (Reality is not a “show” - it is interactive. It is not a “game” - it has consequences. It is not an “apparition” - it is tangible.) Once again, this is bullshit he’s pulling to make you feel bad, because if people don’t get scared by stuff like solipsism then they dismiss it as the irrelevancy it is, and then after that they start wondering what value there is in a bachelor’s degree in philosophy and writing. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/168 "2020-07-11T07:53:16Z")
The argument seems to keep revolving around the same thing: the OP refusing to actually engage with the counterarguments raised. In the end of course the OP’s standpoint is inconsistent and biased simultaneously, as pointed out by others. No-one needs to prove that solipsism is not true, and indeed that is impossible to do. You’d expect the burden of proof to lie on those who claim solipsism is correct, as you need to presume the existence of reality if you want to stay alive and keep out of harm. The OP does act as if there is reality and there are others, as proven also by his participation in this thread. So the OP’s argument is really a big smokescreen to deflect our attention from the lack of support for his own standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/169 "2020-07-11T19:03:44Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > So the OP’s argument is really a big smokescreen to deflect our attention from the lack of support for his own standpoint. What I can’t figure is what he _wanted_ us to say? What constitutes a “big win” for him in this thread? “Yes, you’re right, we’re all playing cards controlled by the demon Gnashtroph and this is all designed to deceive you…” “Yes, you’re right, you’ve perceived the essence of the deepest reality and are the finest philosopher the world has ever produced…” “Yes, you’re right, and this gives you our official permission to take all the drugs you want…” Usually, in a thread, it isn’t hard to guess what the participants would like to hear. But in this case, I can’t work it out. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/170 "2020-07-11T19:26:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What I can’t figure is what he _wanted_ us to say? Sorry, we can’t reply to your question because we don’t exist. 😐 ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/171 "2020-07-11T19:32:38Z")
> [@digs](#): > > dorm room metaphysics Nice phrase. 👍 I used to have a friend with similar tendencies, which I couldn’t label properly. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/172 "2020-07-12T01:34:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What constitutes a “big win” for him in this thread? At the moment, nearly 200 replies. He’s not capable of engaging with the material on a deep level, but that’s not what he wants. He just wants to be seen and he wants people to respond to his stuff. This is of course somewhat ironic in a thread about solipsism, but there you go. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/173 "2020-07-12T02:09:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What constitutes a “big win” for him in this thread? Same thing as he gets from every one of these threads; people engaging with him and a platform to speak about his insecurities. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/174 "2020-07-12T18:30:25Z")
Ah, well… If getting people to engage with you is a victory, he has it and is certainly welcome to it. I’m happy to discuss purt’ near anything, so long as it stays reasonably polite. The SDMB is where odd opinions pop up like mushrooms, and there’s nothing wrong with picking mushrooms (so long as you don’t eat the deadly ones!) It does seem wonderfully paradoxical, though, that someone would be desperate to get response from others…regarding the idea that there aren’t any others. Might just as well just enjoy lengthy conversations with Eliza and Racter! ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/175 "2020-07-17T02:19:53Z")
I never said that. I do want it to be true that there is an external reality and other people and minds and I have no choice but to act as though that is true. But there is a deep anxiety around “pretending” people exist (something I don’t want to do because I find it insulting to “others”). BUt more so, I know I can’t escape the claim being made. That the existence of an external reality is not a certainty and there is no way to know or gain evidence either way. I was hoping to find a way to prove the guy in the link wrong, but I know I can’t because…well how can I? I can’t. I can’t prove solipsism false or true, but it’s tennets are not easy to live with. Even the day to day for me is hard as periods of “unreality” and the “flat” feeling he describes pop up. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/176 "2020-07-17T04:34:16Z")
It’s difficult in these times right now, with social distancing and all, but I recommend a more physical existence for you. You need to connect your mind and body better. IMHO, solipsism arises when people ponder the mind-body duality problem too much. The mind gets to thinking it can prove only that it exists, and then it’s off to the races… I assure you that you do have a body, and more time “inhabiting” it may help. You need to stop imagining yourself as a pilot sitting in your head, and put your consciousness into your whole body. There are many physical disciplines that take you more into your body. I would suggest a martial art, but these COVID days are not a great time to start that. Same goes for live yoga. An online or TV fitness deal could help. Better still, there are online yoga and qui gong classes. But even just more exercise would help. Or maybe there are good live classes in your area even now. Also, I think it’s already been pointed out above that you have some symptoms of depression. Ruminating, for example, is a symptom of depression. I’m not saying that you have depression, but you should really check in with a mental health professional. It would be a shame to misdiagnose a treatable mental health problem as an insoluble philosophical one. Anyway, hang in there. People have made cracks about “dorm room metaphysics” in this thread, but what does that say except that many of us have been where you are now at one time or another? The world has many ways of letting us know it’s real. Give it a chance to show you. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/177 "2020-07-17T06:16:09Z")
I can sympathize with feeling disconnected from the world. That is a feeling many persons encounter at one time in their life. However, I think you are looking in the wrong direction if you think the feeling will go away with a proof that solipsism is wrong. Indeed, you should not mistake the feeling with solipsism, they are entirely different. Now it looks like you’re trying to treat a broken leg with psychotherapy. As suggested many times by others, step away from the philosophical debate. It will only increase that feeling of disconnect. Instead, as suggested just now by Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle, interact with other persons and the world. There is a passage by David Hume (I believe in his Treatise) where he describes this very feeling of getting lost in mind games about what is real or not, and then he goes out to the pub and plays billiards, and the feeling is gone. If direct interaction with people is difficult right now, I’d recommend doing something with your hands, playing with a pet, or tending for plants. And/or possibly physical exercise, walking. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/178 "2020-07-17T17:47:37Z")
Have you read a sampling of his many, _many_ other posts on this sort of topic? He apparently can’t step away from this stuff. It’s part of the psychological issues that lie behind his posts. Others have pointed this out repeatedly. His goal is become convinced of that which he cannot be convinced. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/179 "2020-07-17T20:12:33Z")
As noted, we can prove that you exist, that you are interacting with _something_ that exists, and that that something is way bigger than you are and thus isn’t you in any real sense. Additionally we can can also prove that every person you interact with is, in fact, a genuine real person that exists - intelligent conversation can only come from something at least as intelligent as the conversation. (When you are talking to a marionette you are actually talking to the person pulling the strings.) These are all things that solipsism cannot disprove or wave away, and anybody who claims it has is wrong. What a solipsistic model _can_ do, though, is take literally everything that isn’t your mind and roll it up into a single ball called “everything else”. This “everything else” necessarily includes at least one intelligence smart and aware enough to provide the voice and actions for every person you interact with, but it could in fact be one person puppetting all of them. Rather than getting visual information from photons bouncing off millions of things, all your photons could be coming from a single source that is manufacturing all your visual input. Solipsism successfully argues that your mind could be experiencing a simulation that is feeding you all your sensory input. And in that simulation some or all of the people you interact with might be controlled by the simulation engine. Functionally speaking, this is equivalent to playing a game of dungeons and dragons with the DM acting out all the NPCs’ parts, doing the voices and everything. Of course, no analogy is perfect - the D&D analogy implies that there is an outer world of greater importance than the one that exists in the game, while solipsism does not. (At least, not when explained by people without a crooked agenda.) And the removal of the outer world assumption changes a few things. There being a world outside the “game” implies that the “game” is unreal, unimportant, without consequences, and temporary. If one doesn’t assume there’s an outer world, those implications fall away. There is no reason to think that a simulated world is temporary - and observed reality really doesn’t seem temporary. There is no reason to think that a simulated world lacks consequences - and it really seems like there are actual consequences here. There is no reason to think that a simulated world is unimportant - without something more important to compare it to, why would it be? And there’s no reason to think that a simulated world is unreal, because without something else ‘more real’ to compare it to, how is it not real? If you don’t assume that there is an outside, more important world, then the simulation we’re in _is_ reality. Just because the simulation is _actually_ being run on hardware that we can’t see, like atoms and molecules and photons and such, that doesn’t mean it’s not real. And, again, you don’t have to “pretend” people exist. The people you interact with do exist - solipsism cannot contest that. Of course they may not be exactly as they appear to be - some of them may even have internal organs that are not visible at first glance, and that young man you met four decades ago and that old person you met yesterday might in fact have been controlled by the same overarching mind. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778/180 "2020-07-18T00:46:57Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > And/or possibly physical exercise, walking. Walking is darn good exercise of the mild, low-impact, slow-and-steady variety. Give me a forest trail and a canteen of water, and that’s the basis for a darn good afternoon! However (you knew there was an “however!”) I wonder if it’s right for feelings of existential angst. You can still do a lot of introspective cognition (aka “fussing”) while walking. It doesn’t de-activate the mind the way, say, running, jumping rope, or a weight machine all do. I will be coarse and vulgar – but I’m actually serious – and suggest that one treatment for intellectual masturbation is _actual_ masturbation. It’s good clean fun, a mild form of exercise, and, during the throes of pleasure, all intellection vanishes quite away! (Eating also serves something of the same purpose. A big bowl of chicken-noodle soup is actually good for anxiety.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overcoming-solipsism/852778.md?page=10)