Well, just sayin’, this is where you and I don’t agree. I hold open the (totally abstract and foolishly speculative) possibility that “reason” is meaningless and this is all just a wild dream. I know you don’t accept this – but the problem is that you don’t accept this, on the basis of reason…which I’m saying might not exist.
In other words, “reason…because reason” is circular, in the same way that “nonsense…because nonsense” is vacuous. Neither can be demonstrated from “first principles” because we don’t agree on what those are.
(BTW, I do not actually agree with any of this; I’m only holding out totally abstract ideas. I do not know if this counts as “trolling” under board rules, so if I should stop, for goodness sake someone let me know.)
I don’t actually reason from first principles - I reason from premises granted to me. In this case, solipsism says, “The perceptions you’re experiencing are coming from your own mind!” and I stroke my chin thoughtfully and am all like, “So you concede that I’m experiencing perceptions, do you? Well well well!”
Like, for example, I look at the premise “this is all just a wild dream”, and start stroking my chin. I’m not starting from nothing, I’m starting from the premise. What does “dream” imply? Hmm…
I don’t see how that gets you anywhere. Yes, I’m experiencing perceptions. Are they “real?” I say maybe not. Are they from “outside” of me? I say maybe not. Are they even consistent or coherent? They appear to be – but dreams can appear coherent too, until you wake up and think about them.
You and I just don’t agree…which is kinda okay. What’s the harm? But I hold the possibility that the sim only shows the near side of the tree, and you hold that it has to model the whole tree. Ain’t no way either of us will convince the other.
(It’s like the Star Trek Transporter debate. Hopeless!) (Or Deep-dish/Thin-crust, if you really want to get vicious!) (Grin!)
Perceptions are perceptions. They’re coming from somewhere, right? That somewhere is based in something real. It has to be - or it couldn’t produce perceptions. Be that something your mind, somebody else’s mind, physical reality, or a simulation, it has to exist in order to feed you data, real or false. And thus, there is no “maybe not”.
Is the input of our perceptions consistent or coherent? It does indeed appear to be. It really appears to be. This is where we draw the line between dreams and reality - reality holds up to persistent examination. You can do science on reality - science, of course, just being organized observation of something that is consistent enough to all you to make accurate predictions based on prior observations. Reality really holds up. So, yes, based on prolonged observation you can conclude that perceived reality, unlike dreams, is consistent and coherent.
Are the perceptions coming from outside of me? Well, how complicated are they? We know what we’re aware of. We have experience with the limitations of our conscious mind. We have experience with what we perceive as the products of our subconscious mind - dreams. How do they work out? How coherent are they? How consistent? Again, this comes down to experience. Based on experience we can conclude that our conscious mind, our unconscious mind, and our perceptions produce different stuff, based on different bases of information. Which means that either you have a second subconscious that is so wildly different from everything else about your mind as to be an alien being residing inside your skull - or it’s an alien universe outside your skull. Either way it’s not ‘you’ in any coherent sense, because it doesn’t behave like you.
There’s no harm in believing whatever, presuming you’re not making terrible decisions based on it or trying to monetize it by taking advantage of gullible people. That doesn’t mean that everybody’s opinions are objectively correct descriptions of how reality works.
And to be even close to capable of modeling perceivable reality the sim has to store within its data the other side of the tree, otherwise the squirrel hiding there can’t be casting that shadow you see. Whether it models the other side depends on what you mean by ‘models’. For example if is used a ray tracer-like system, it would only model where photons are bouncing and being absorbed and emitted, and in that model the only effect that the squirrel would have on the model would be to block the light passing behind the tree. It wouldn’t interact directly with the rays being traced out from your eyes until it entered your direct view.
KIRK: Charlie, there are a million things in this universe you can have and there are a million things you can’t have. It’s no fun facing that, but that’s the way things are.
CHARLIE: Then what am I going to do?
KIRK: Hang on tight and survive. Everybody does.
Of course there is. Pick the style of pizza you like best and stick with it. Learn to be okay with the notion that other people enjoy a different style of pizza and not be fooled into thinking that their’s tastes any more like pizza than yours or that their level of enjoyment is superior to yours.
One time in college, I fell asleep on a couch in the student union while I was cramming. I had a very vivid dream that was just me, sitting on the same couch, studying for the same test.
Not only did I wake up completely unrefreshed and feeling like I’d been robbed of a nap, but I got a shitty grade on the test.
I guess the point is that any kind of inane dream is possible. Even this thread.
I once woke up and thought I’d better get up, rather than lying there and going back to sleep. So I got up and walked across the room.
But something was strange. The wall was a different color, and there was a different scene outside the window. What was happening? Then I was aware of my body still lying in bed half-asleep, not standing up. I was dreaming that I had woken up.
I thought I’d better really get up. So I made an effort, opened my eyes, and got out of bed. The wall and the scene outside the window were correct this time. But when I walked to the bathroom and looked in the mirror, I couldn’t see myself, only the empty room. I was still asleep in bed!
So I made another effort and got up again. I hope I’m not still dreaming…
"It is true, but it is a dead end to be an overtly uncompromising and dogmatic solipsist.
Indeed, all we can know is that we “experience”, that we are “aware” - beyond that there is no certainty of anything, as to true 100% certainty or empirical provability.
Even any words or symbols we use are constraints. constructs, and false as well - we cannot recognize (“be aware”, ”experience”) we know anything beyond that we do “have experience”.
Everything else is up in the air, in that only what is actually Real and True hath not nary a care.
