# Overhaul needed in DWI law & enforcement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435 "2009-06-02T01:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/121 "2009-06-07T11:55:42Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I think your buddy would have to weigh well over 300lbs for this to be true. I’m larger than average (~200lbs), and IIRC my 4th drink would put me at .08. That’s why I absolutely never drive if I’ve had 4, and on the rare occasions that I have 3 and need to drive, I wait quite awhile. Tolerance has nothing to do with BAC, by the way. I’m not sure if you think it does but that seems to be an implication of your story. And .08 is a moot point in Arizona 'cause you’re getting nailed to the wall at .05. Jail time, interlock device, etc. No, he’s about 220 and is about 6’2". He has no reason to lie. When you said, “my 4th drink **would** put me at .08” (me bolding) have you ever had this tested in a controlled environment? You misunderstood the implication; it was only to show that .08 can be quite a lot of alcohol for someone AND they could be feeling the effects of the alcohol. The point in a nutshell: .08 gives people lots of room to reasonably imbibe. Besides, I think tolerance is a myth, frankly, because I’ve been a fairly regular drinker my whole adult life, and every time I drink, I feel varying degrees of drunkenness due to how tired I am, how full I am and what I ate. There are probably other factors in there too: stress level, how fast am I consuming, etc. For this reason, that’s why breathalyzer’s aren’t the end-all, be-all. There are also field sobriety tests. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/122 "2009-06-07T14:38:58Z")
Is there a ‘field’ sobriety test that could be administered to oneself? I can’t walk heal to toe down a straight line. Never could. I’m tall, top heavy and have big feet. What other tests are there? I’m also of a mind that the DWI laws are draconian. I would like to see people get stopped for bad driving. A new DWI law ---- Driving While an Idiot. I’d like to see more tickets for illegal lane use. Not using your turn signal. Blocking traffic. Not obeying traffic signals. Reckless driving, and driving too fast OR slow for conditions. There should be a traffic ticket for NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Stuck in an intersection and don’t know which way to turn? An NPA for you. You can puzzle out your conundrum down the street after you park. We have ‘Click it or Ticket’ laws where you must wear your seat belt. Fine. I would like to see a similar campaign to make people use turn signals. ---
**Author:** ![courtsteve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@courtsteve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/courtsteve)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/123 "2009-06-07T14:56:03Z")
Here is where the line gets crossed. When the purpose of the traffic stop is for checking for intoxication and not for a legitimate violation of traffic laws due solely to the time and place the driver happens to be traveling. Here is a personal story. I had spent an evening at a social club decorating for a reception to be held the next day. 5 maybe 6 beers later I left with my wife and proceeded homeward. Unfortunately for us a local officer had a trainee in the squad car and decided to show her how to pull someone over and check them out. After following us for miles without my showing any cause I made a left turn into the inner lane of a four lane road and soon after moved into the right lane without signaling. When does this ever warrant a traffic stop during daytime hours? No matter it was a reason and the lights came on. Long story made short I ended up blowing a .085 at the station and have a DUI on my record FOREVER. Cost of around $2500 and the threat of long term revocation of license if it EVER happens again. It is a business now involving the city and state governments, lawyers, the people who give the mandated classes, the analyzer installers and more. What scares me? Last week I was driving home from dinner with my father. A 16 yr old turned left in front of me and we collided. 100% her fault but when the officer arrived the major concern was if I was intoxicated. He felt that he could smell the one 12 oz beer I had drank over 3 hours prior and had topped with a steak dinner and 3 glasses of iced tea. I was asked to submit to a portable test on site. No problem but what if I had agreed to the bottle of wine my father suggested with dinner? Another .08 and my life would be severely damaged. No ability to get to work when on call. No way to get my boat to the water. A years college tuition spent to various agencies. Shy high insurance cost. I know just don’t drink and drive but .08 is too low and don’t believe for a minute that even lower standards are not coming soon. Yes in my opinion the line has been crossed between public safety and the intolerance of any alcohol and it has been crossed to raise funds and placate voters. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/124 "2009-06-07T16:08:39Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Sucks that I can’t though, according to your rules. I have a hard time believing that Canada would refuse an American entry into their county over something that happened 17 years ago. They aren’t my rules; I’m American. And believe me, I’ve personally seen scores of cases in which the U.S. refused entry to Canadians for the same or similar issues. Of course, there’s a really simple solution; don’t drink and drive, or if you do drink at all, a) stick to one or two; and b) don’t get behind the wheel until you’ve metabolized the alcohol. It works just fine for me. Eva Luna, U.S. Immigration Paralegal and former Immigration Court employee ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/125 "2009-06-07T17:13:45Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > They aren’t my rules; I’m American. And believe me, I’ve personally seen scores of cases in which the U.S. refused entry to Canadians for the same or similar issues. > Of course, there’s a really simple solution; don’t drink and drive, or if you do drink at all, a) stick to one or two; and b) don’t get behind the wheel until you’ve metabolized the alcohol. It works just fine for me. > > Eva Luna, U.S. Immigration Paralegal and former Immigration Court employee Thanks for the info. I still find it hard to believe that Canada would refuse entry into its country to an American for a misdemeanor that occurred decades before, or for America to do the same to Canadians trying to enter the USA. It seems so…_stupid_. We are neighboring, friendly nations. It isn’t like we’re talking about an ex-felon here. Or like we’re trying to get into the former Soviet Union with fake papers. I got a DUI when I was a kid, I was stupid. Now I can’t enter Canada? Jeez, that’s just inane. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/126 "2009-06-07T17:38:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Canada would refuse entry into its country to an American for a misdemeanor that occurred decades before . . . We are neighboring, friendly nations. It isn’t like we’re talking about an ex-felon here. Or like we’re trying to get into the former Soviet Union with fake papers. I was thinking about that . . . is the US not pissed that Canada started doing this? Do we do the same thing to them? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/127 "2009-06-08T00:51:20Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I was thinking about that . . . is the US not pissed that Canada started doing this? Do we do the same thing to them? See above; yes, the U.S. routinely refuses entry to Canadians with DUI (and other non-felony, such as soliciting prostitution) convictions. Why would we be pissed that Canada does the same? I am genuinely boggled at the number of posters in this thread who seem to have the attitude that a conviction for an act that has the potential to kill innocent people is “no big deal.” ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/128 "2009-06-08T01:24:15Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > See above; yes, the U.S. routinely refuses entry to Canadians with DUI (and other non-felony, such as soliciting prostitution) convictions. Why would we be pissed that Canada does the same? Sorry, I missed that. > [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I am genuinely boggled at the number of posters in this thread who seem to have the attitude that a conviction for an act that has the potential to kill innocent people is “no big deal.” I hope this isn’t directed at me. I definitely think DWI is a big deal. It’s just not a perfect system is all. Lots of things people do have the potential to kill people; reading the newspaper while driving, not washing your hands while preparing food, etc, it’s just most of them aren’t prosecuted to anywhere near the extent of DWI. [Studies suggest](http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/cell-phone-drivers-as-bad-as-drunks-10911.html) that driving while on the phone is as bad as driving at .08, yet in the few places that’s illegal, the worst you can get is a small ticket. In Arizona they can basically ruin your life at .05. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/129 "2009-06-08T01:58:06Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > They aren’t my rules; I’m American. And believe me, I’ve personally seen scores of cases in which the U.S. refused entry to Canadians for the same or similar issues. I’ve had a criminal conviction in Canada for DUI back in 81 and I’ve had no problem entering the US. My understanding though is that refusal for entry is discretionary on the part of the border agent ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/130 "2009-06-08T01:59:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Sorry, I missed that. > > I hope this isn’t directed at me. I definitely think DWI is a big deal. It’s just not a perfect system is all. Lots of things people do have the potential to kill people; reading the newspaper while driving, not washing your hands while preparing food, etc, it’s just most of them aren’t prosecuted to anywhere near the extent of DWI. [Studies suggest](http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/cell-phone-drivers-as-bad-as-drunks-10911.html) that driving while on the phone is as bad as driving at .08, yet in the few places that’s illegal, the worst you can get is a small ticket. In Arizona they can basically ruin your life at .05. It wasn’t directed specifically at you, but it is directed at all the people who are complaining at being pulled over after downing half a dozen beers, etc. It’s people’s failure to take responsibility for their own negligent actions that boggles me. I spent one summer after college as a receptionist at a psych counseling office - one of the services they provided was the required alcohol dependency evaluations for people arrested for DUI. It blew my mind how often people called for their 2nd, 3rd, 4th. etc. evaluation. One guy had the cojones to complain about the expense, asking why he couldn’t just use the same evaluation report from his last DUI (his 7th!). And for the record, I’d definitely be in favor of prosecuting anyone whose negligence behind the wheel has the potential to kill someone - for that matter, I was once nearly run over while crossing the street on crutches by a woman in an SUV who decided that rush-hour traffic was an appropriate time to talk on her cell phone while driving an SUV on icy roads. Sure, throw the book at people like that, too. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/131 "2009-06-08T02:00:24Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > We have ‘Click it or Ticket’ laws where you must wear your seat belt. Fine. I would like to see a similar campaign to make people use turn signals. To be honest, I would too. Why people don’t use their turn signals I simply cannot comprehend. It’s inexcusable and stupid. The signal is right there on the steering column, how hard is it to use? But having said that, the sad truth is that there are only so many cops, only so many hours in the day, and therefore only so many stops the cops can make. And failure to use turn signals doesn’t kill the number of people drunken driving does - not even close. For better or for worse they’re trying to address the most severe problem. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/132 "2009-06-08T02:01:22Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’ve had a criminal conviction in Canada for DUI back in 81 and I’ve had no problem entering the US. My understanding though is that refusal for entry is discretionary on the part of the border agent It may be that it was discretionary, and it may be, especially for a conviction that old, that there simply wasn’t a record of it in the computer system. But more old conviction records are added all the time, and you may not be so lucky the next time. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/133 "2009-06-08T02:05:13Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > It blew my mind how often people called for their 2nd, 3rd, 4th. etc. evaluation. One guy had the cojones to complain about the expense, asking why he couldn’t just use the same evaluation report from his last DUI (his 7th!). It is silly to keep re-evaluating him, frankly. He’s almost certainly an alcoholic. Rule of thumb: Get one DUI and your chance of having alcoholism is about the same as the general population, that is to say around 10%. Get two DUIs, and the chance goes up to just shy of 90%. Three DUIs, over 99%, and beyond that, about as close to 100% as you can get. A person who doesn’t change their drinking behavior in the face of significant drinking-related consequences is one of the primary definitions of an alcoholic. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/134 "2009-06-08T02:09:52Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > It is silly to keep re-evaluating him, frankly. He’s almost certainly an alcoholic. > > Rule of thumb: Get one DUI and your chance of having alcoholism is about the same as the general population, that is to say around 10%. > > Get two DUIs, and the chance goes up to just shy of 90%. > > Three DUIs, over 99%, and beyond that, about as close to 100% as you can get. > > A person who doesn’t change their drinking behavior in the face of significant drinking-related consequences is one of the primary definitions of an alcoholic. Oh, for sure I’m not arguing that it’s pointless to keep evaluating him. I just meant that the lack of personal responsibility boggled me, and WHY THE FUCK does a guy with 7 DUIs still have a driver’s license? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/135 "2009-06-08T03:48:03Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Oh, for sure I’m not arguing that it’s pointless to keep evaluating him. I just meant that the lack of personal responsibility boggled me, and WHY THE FUCK does a guy with 7 DUIs still have a driver’s license? Because most likely the guy doesn’t have a license anymore, however, he does have access to a car from his wife/mother/brother/child etc.. The fact he doesn’t have a license anymore doesn’t keep him from driving, it just means that when the cops stop him they charge him both with drunk driving AND driving under suspension. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/136 "2009-06-08T04:26:38Z")
Drunk driving is a horrible thing, but the attitude in dealing with it since the 80s or so has been that no punishment is too harsh, and there’s no countervailing force to that. You’ll never hear an elected official, police representative, or district attorney say that we need to go easier on drunk drivers. The goal of the response to DUI is to prevent accidents, and penalties should be evaluated based on that goal. My guess is that increased penalties mostly take the .08% occasional drinkers off the road; most people who would get behind the wheel in the \>.20% range are either alcoholics who live their entire lives there, too oblivious to know what the punishments are, or don’t care. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile to increase penalties, but you have to consider how many accidents the people you’re taking off the road are responsible for. The tough penalties may keep the first-timers from doing it again, but it may also have the opposite effect. If your first DUI destroys you professionally, financially, and reputation-wise, what do you have to lose if you get a second one? One thing I’ve never been crazy about is court-ordered AA attendance. I went to an AA meeting as part of a medical school rotation, and I was shocked by how many people were there–I imagined them being much smaller. Then after the meeting a line formed, and about 3/4 of the people in attendance each got a little card signed by one of the leaders. He told me that one of our local judges had gotten on a kick of sending DUI offenders to mandatory AA meetings, and that a lot of the meetings in town had had to move to larger venues. He said that a lot of them weren’t really alcoholics, and very few of them were actually willing to “work it”, as they say. I don’t know how common that is. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/137 "2009-06-08T14:00:55Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Because most likely the guy doesn’t have a license anymore, however, he does have access to a car from his wife/mother/brother/child etc.. The fact he doesn’t have a license anymore doesn’t keep him from driving, it just means that when the cops stop him they charge him both with drunk driving AND driving under suspension. Nope, he still had a license. (Part of my receptionist spiel was that I was required to get all the basic info from them before registering them for intake with a psychologist.) There were plenty of other clients who didn’t, but he wasn’t one of them. Of course, this was a long time ago now, before Illinois decided to get much tougher about DUIs. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/138 "2009-06-10T03:04:40Z")
> [@The\_Raven](#): > > I spent some time in Seoul recently, and marveled at their solution to DUI. It’s incredibly simple. It’s also very useful, since SK’s DUI laws are brutal, particularly for a country where drinking is very much part of the social fabric, and there are about a brazillion cars on the road. > > So you go to a bar, get hammered, and call this service. They come to where you are and drop off a driver who drives you home, IN YOUR OWN CAR. That’s the beauty of it. Then someone from the service comes and picks up the driver, and moves on to the next customer. > > You don’t wake up the next day and have to find your way to wherever you parked the night before, which is a real pain in the ass. > > Ta-daaa! Here the valet will drive you home, for the cost of return taxi fare to the bar and a small tip. (note - taxi from anywhere in the city wouldn’t be more than $30) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/139 "2009-06-10T05:51:57Z")
I want to point out that the USA is rather tolerant with a .08 BAC. Most nations have .05, and even less. > **[Blood alcohol content](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content)** > > Blood alcohol content (BAC), also called blood alcohol concentration or blood alcohol level, is a measurement of alcohol intoxication used for legal or medical purposes; it is expressed as mass of alcohol per volume or mass of blood. For example, a BAC of 0.10 by volume (0.10% or one tenth of one percent) means that there is 0.10 g of alcohol for every 100 mL of blood, which is the same as 21.7 mmol/L. A BAC of 0.10 by mass (0.10%) is 0.10 g of alcohol per 100 g of blood (23 mmol/L). A BAC As ... ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435/140 "2009-06-10T06:25:43Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > It wasn’t directed specifically at you, but it is directed at all the people who are complaining at being pulled over after downing half a dozen beers, etc. It’s people’s failure to take responsibility for their own negligent actions that boggles me. I concur. If it were illegal to wear a red shirt with 6 mo in jail and a $5000 fine, guess what . . . I WOULDN’T WEAR A RED SHIRT! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overhaul-needed-in-dwi-law-enforcement/498435.md?page=8)