# Overrated sports figures that need to be taken down a notch **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 1, 2001, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270 "2001-12-01T06:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2001, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/21 "2001-12-03T16:13:01Z")
When you say “taken down a notch”, I assume you mean in their own eyes. Therefore, I’d respectfully disagree about A-Rod. It was the Ranger’s foolish owner that decided to pay him 100 million over the next best offer. Alex performed pretty darn well this year. While nobody’s worth 250 mil in sports, it’s not Alex’s fault that’s what the market will bear. If you want exponential egos, try: Randy Moss Derek Bell Deion Sanders Mike Piazza ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2001, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/22 "2001-12-03T23:50:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*To me, overrated players are guys who got huge amounts of press coverage that was NEVER remotely justified by their play. Some names that come to mind: > > 1. Nolan Ryan. Some great numbers, some flashes of brilliance, but NEVER a winner. Great pitchers (Steve Carlton comes to mind) find ways to win even on lousy teams. Nolan Ryan was a slightly-over-.500 pitcher. Definitely overrated.\*\* Pitching 7 no-hitters isn’t justifiable for press coverage? There’s entire _teams_ that don’t have 7 no-hitters to their credit. He has a career 3.19 ERA (Carlton’s is 3.22) and the record for most Ks in a season - 383 (done during the first year of the DH, BTW). He led the league in Ks 11 times (Carlton did it 5 times). He struck out over 300 batters 6 different times (Carlton did it once). He has 5714 career Ks (Carlton is #2 with 4136, not even close to Ryan). 8 seasons with an ERA below 3.00 (Carlton did that same). You can’t just look at his W-L record and say he’s a .500 pitcher and therefore overrated. Overall, Ryan’s numbers are better than Carlton’s. Looking at Carlton’s numbers, with the exception of the 1972 Phillies, Carlton’s W-L record mirrored the team’s W-L record. He had the one outstanding season on a bad team, but it was only that one season - a flash of brilliance, some might say. A pitcher can only do so much for his team, the rest is in the offense backing up the pitcher. Look at Clemens’s 20-3 record this year. The Rocket pitched well this year, but how much of that record is his pitching talent and how much is because Clemens got 6.6 runs of support per start, while teammate Mike Mussina had nearly idesntical numbers, except for W-L. Mussina got only 4.3 runs of supports per start. The pitcher can only keep his team in the game, but the _team_ has to win it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/23 "2001-12-04T01:23:05Z")
All of them- every single solitary “professional sports star”. They produce nothing, and earn much. Worse, some of these dudes are called “heroes” when dudes like firefighters are paid maybe a tenth of what these parasites get paid, and really are heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/24 "2001-12-04T02:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > **All of them- every single solitary “professional sports star”. They produce nothing, and earn much.** Some of them produce something: [Mark McGwire Foundation](http://promotions.yahoo.com/promotions/mcgwire/) [Marshall Faulk](http://www.nfl.com/news/001016effort.html) and numerous football players’ [charities](http://www.offthefield.com/OTF%20Text/CharitiesListFootball.htm). [Arthur Ashe](http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/sports/special/barriers/ashe.html). And of course, Jackie Robinson led the way for all who followed, enduring three years of abuse before he was allowed to say anything in his own defense. They may not be risking their lives on a regular basis, but they don’t all just leach off their fans and bask in the glow of their bank accounts. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/25 "2001-12-04T02:29:50Z")
Anna Kournikova. Has never won a pro tournament ever, but is the only female tennis player many people can name. And she isn’t all that cute, either, IMHO. That face has “Superbitch” written all over it. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/26 "2001-12-04T04:12:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Anna Kournikova. Has never won a pro tournament ever, but is the only female tennis player many people can name. > > And she isn’t all that cute, either, IMHO. That face has “Superbitch” written all over it. \*\* She has a face now? ---
**Author:** ![Dub56](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Dub56](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dub56)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/27 "2001-12-04T04:41:04Z")
I’m going to have to disagree w/ A-Rod as well . . . Batted .318, on-base at .400, 52 jacks and 135 rbi on a poor team definitely reads as a sick year - look at his career splits, and he’s averaging over 40 HR per 160 games played . . . Now, if you want to argue money . . . well, how hard is it to turn down 250 mil? Add to that the fact that the Rangers really do have a top-heavy farm system (see: Carlos Pena, Mark Texeira, etc) and the decision begins to make more sense . . . it would seem that he saw a chance to improve his position, both monetarily and in terms of his playing environment, and took it. If I had that much money laying around, would I pay it to have A-Rod over Carlos Guillen at short? Of course. Now - that said, his leaving a team that went on to win as many games as the M’s did this year would seem a poor decision, but with Texas’s young players coming up, and now w/ John Hart as GM, the AL West may soon find itself the best division in baseball . . . As far as overrated players goes . . . Terrell Davis? Darren Dreifort? etc . . . ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/28 "2001-12-04T06:50:50Z")
> [@](#): > > As far as overrated players goes . . . Terrell Davis? I’m assuming you meant Terrell Davis of the Denver Broncos? The same Terrel Davis that rushed for [1117 yards in his rookie season, and 2008 yards in his 3rd year?](http://www.nfl.com/players/1097.htm) He’s only the fourth running back in NFL history to break 2000 yards in a season. That season he also had the best pro-season rushing average at 105 yds/game. Does he seem overrated now? Possibly, I mean, afterall, he only has about 200 yards/yr for the past 3 years. But that’s because he’s had some pretty serious injuries. I don’t really think you can say he’s overrated because he hasn’t been playing much the past 3 seasons. I’m sure he would love to be out there kicking ass and taking names, but unfortunately, his knee isn’t up to it. > [@](#): > > He also has 7,594 total yards from scrimmage (2nd) and 7,594 combined yards (3rd). Davis already holds or shares 59 team records (21 in the postseason), including most points scored in a season (138 in 1998), most total yards from scrimmage in a season (2,225 in 1998), most rushing yards in a season (2,008 in 1998), most rushing touchdowns in a season (21 in 1998), most touchdowns in a season (23 in 1998), most rushing attempts (31) and rushing yards (184) in a postseason game, and most rushing and total touchdowns (3) in a postseason game. Those numbers look pretty impressive to me. from: [http://www.nfl.com/players/1097\_bios.htm](http://www.nfl.com/players/1097_bios.htm) You know who is very, very overrated? Deon Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/29 "2001-12-04T07:43:01Z")
Uh, guys…context. Context is everything. Allow me to reprint my comments on Alex Rodriguez: > [@](#): > > “The man who’s going to save baseball”, Esquire? Ha! He barely made a dent in the Rangers’ hopes! Boy, does he feel like a complete idiot right now! A-Rod? More like A-Clod! He was nothing without the Mariners! Nothing! And now those Mariners, the team he so foolishly spurned for empty cash, not only tied the record for the most wins in a season, they also won…ah…that is to say, they made the playoffs and…uh… > > Actually, you know what, I think the jury’s still out on him. Maybe I can comment more on him in a year or so… There was a smiley thing at the end, too. All of which should have made it perfectly clear that I was \<\\>. Sheesh, you’d think _this_ of all boards should’ve been able to “dope” it out… For the record I don’t think A-Rod is overrated at all; if anything, he’s probably taken more flack than he deserved. Do you know anyone who would turn down $22 million a year? Yes, of course it was all because of the money…maybe because he didn’t think the Mariners would ever have what it took to win the World Series. Game 5 of the ALCS would seem to bear that out, no? Regarding Jordan, yes, yes, I \know\ that he was a complete game-breaker in his time. But tell me, any time the subject of “6 NBA championships in the 90’s” comes up, do you hear ANY mention of Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman (pretty hard to overlook, I would think), or, well, Scottie Pippen (who also has six rings, BTW)? When the Bulls put Pippen, and Kukoc on the floor with Jordan, opposing defenses couldn’t double-team anybody without getting burned. Compare this to Patrick Ewing or Allen Iverson, who’ve always had to fight off double teams and defensive schemes specifically set up to stop them. That’s my point. _Jordan had help_, and a lot of it. Different teammates, different coaching, different offense, and he’d be lucky to have even one championship. Re. John Elway, I’ll always have more respect for him than Montana because he had to overcome a hell of a lot more, and he often had to carry the offense on his back, something Montana _never_ had to do. Again, Montana would’ve probably been squashed if he had the offensive lines and running backs Elway did in the 80’s. If Terrell Davis and Mike Shanahan had gotten on board five years earlier, Elway would probably have _at least_ four rings. Heck, look at how far the team has fallen since he left. That’s the kind of presence he had. And yes, yes, I know Tiger Woods has the ability to absolutely blow the doors down (didn’t I already mention this?). But fer cryin’ out loud, he’s still _human_ and is prone to mistakes. In fact, he’s probably more prone to mistakes than more even-keeled players like Phil Mickelson, and it’s irritating that no one seems courageous enought to point this out. I mean, how the hell did he fall so far out of contention at the US Open that three players who totally screwed up on the 18th finished well ahead of him, allowing a _complete unknown_ to eventually win? Retief Goosen beating out Tiger Woods was like some wet-behind-the-ears rookie taking out Pete Sampras at Wimbledon. In fact, IIRC, that not only actually happened, it rocked the sport to its core. I just wish the same would happen whenever Woods coughs one up, ya know? Okay, enough clarifications. Back to the good-natured flamin’… 🙂 (There’s another smiley. Use the smiley. The smiley is your friend.) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/30 "2001-12-04T09:18:35Z")
Jo Montana was not over-rated. he wasn’t always the most gifted quarterback, but he found a way to win when winning seemed damn-near impossible. He was the ultimate ‘go-to’ guy, the guy you give the ball to when the game is on the line. He lead that team to greatness. There are scads of better athletes who cannot seem to do that. As for the baseball players: You do not acheive 300 career wins without being a great pitcher. It is simply not possible. Nor can you attain 3000 strikeouts. You must have great talent to reach those milestones. It’s been said that there are several milestones that guarantee a player a place in the Hall of Fame. 3000 hits, 300 wins, 500 homers… This is because you have to be really, really good over a long, long, period of time to reach them. Give the fellas their due respect. ---
**Author:** ![dead0man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@dead0man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dead0man)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/31 "2001-12-04T12:33:51Z")
DEON SANDERS At his prime he was the third best cover man in the league. Darrel(?) Green and Rod Woodson were better corners. He was fast(Green was always faster). He was a decent cover man (Woodson stuck to you better). He was afaid to tackle people. He was an all or nothing punt returner. He seemed to have turf toe for his last 3 years in the league. He was very flashy, everybody knew he was there. Now he is reason number 6 NOT to watch CBS’s pregame show. dead0man ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/32 "2001-12-04T16:46:05Z")
Yeah, but if I had to choose between watching Deon Sanders on CBS, or watching Cris Collinsworth on FOX, I’d have go with CBS everytime. God, I hate him so much. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/33 "2001-12-04T17:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DKW \* > Bill Parcells It is very difficult to decipher exactly what constitutes good coaching (or managing) . But the fact is that the guy took over three different lousy teams and every one became a serious contender within a few years. I would think he has to be considered the greatest coach of the generation for this reason (unless there’s someone else of similar accomplishment that I’m not aware of). > [@](#): > > Joe Montana > The author of The Dark Side of the Game (damn, I wish I remembered who…former Atlanta defensive end) has, IMHO, the best indictment of Montana I’ve ever read. Practically the moment he arrived in 49ers camp, he was plugged into an offensive scheme, the West Coast Offense, which played perfectly to his strengths (great field vision, accurate, can make quick judgments) and minimized his weaknesses (not very mobile, can’t throw long). I don’t see how the fact that a guy was in a system that played to his strengths detracts from his greatness. In any event, it is my position that all [Quartebacks are over/under rated](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=40676) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2001, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/34 "2001-12-04T18:55:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyuzo \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _ **Originally posted by DKW:** _ > > If he takes a struggling, incomplete, or mediocre team (say, the Wizards) to the championship, I will acknowledge his status as the greatest of all time. No sooner. > > It’s kind of ridiculous to base your determination on whether a player is the greatest of all time on how he performs as a 38 year old, isn’t it?\*\* Michael Jordan is to the Wizards as Walter Johnson was to the Senators. Other than the fact that Jordan is basketball and Johnson is baseball and that Jordan only just came to the Wizards, their status is similar. Johnson, considered by some to be the best pitcher of all time, spent his entire career with the lowly Senators and his only appearances in the World Series came at the tail end of his career. Jordan is still a star but his glory days are behind him. ---
**Author:** ![Kyuzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@Kyuzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyuzo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/35 "2001-12-05T01:30:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _ **Originally posted by DKW:** _ > But tell me, any time the subject of “6 NBA championships in the 90’s” comes up, do you hear ANY mention of Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman (pretty hard to overlook, I would think), or, well, Scottie Pippen (who also has six rings, BTW)? Guess who was the heart, the soul, the leader, and the a$$-kicker of all of those Bulls championship teams? Who made them run? Who made them roll? Jordan. Nobody wins it by himself (the opinion of Da Bears! fans regarding Ditka notwithstanding). Of course, Jordan needed help to win. Jordan is overrated because he needed help to win championships? Are you saying the greatest player of all time would need no help to win championships? If so, then the greatest player of all time hasn’t been **born** yet! What didn’t Jordan do on the basketball court? It’s strange that in one paragraph you say Jordan was overrated because he had a lot of help to win titles, then in the next paragraph, you don’t detract from Elway even though he needed a lot of help to win his titles. I ask you again **DKW** , is Jordan the greatest player of all time? If he is, then how can he possibly be overrated? If he’s not, then who was or is the greatest player of all time, in your opinion? (I personally don’t think you know enough about basketball to answer this question. Maybe you can prove me wrong.) No offense, but you’re making some pretty silly statements. How you can call someone with Jordan’s stats, records, and performances on the court an overrated basketball player is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270/36 "2001-12-05T03:14:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > **All of them- every single solitary “professional sports star”. They produce nothing, and earn much.** Another one that produced on, and off the field. **Kirby Puckett** He has held a charity [8-ball Tournament](http://www.kirbycelebration.com/event_01.html) for many years and also has a [Scholarship](http://www.kirbycelebration.com/scholars_01.html) program. Generalizations don’t work pal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overrated-sports-figures-that-need-to-be-taken-down-a-notch/96270.md?page=1)