# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/181 "2013-01-10T18:58:14Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > now it’s all about semantics lol again…at what point was it ok to keep them captive in order to enjoy this so called mutual benefits? You may now add _Semantics_ to the list of words that do not mean what you seem to think they mean. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/182 "2013-01-10T19:09:03Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I stopped reading at this point. Post 32. That’s too bad because you missed the “most dogs won’t touch raw meat” gem. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/183 "2013-01-10T19:26:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You may now add _Semantics_ to the list of words that do not mean what you seem to think they mean. Accusations of anti-semantic ideas are not called for. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/184 "2013-01-10T19:37:22Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > thanks for fortifying my argument. slavery can ONLY apply to the human species?..which is an animal. FAIL Slavery, by definition, is the ownership of a human by another human. The fact that humans are animals doesn’t change this definition, or automatically broaden it to include non-human animals. More broadly, I think this post illustrates the central flaw in your thinking. Not all animals are the same. A circumstance that would be intolerable to one animal can be negligible or even desirable to another. Keeping an eagle in an environment where it can’t ever fly is cruel. Keeping a penguin in an environment where it can’t ever fly is not cruel, because penguins can’t fly in the first place. We know that keeping humans in a state of bondage is emotionally and physically distressing to them. This is why slavery is immoral. Keeping domesticated animals is neither emotionally nor physically distressing to them. This is not just speculation, it’s demonstrable fact: for the physical, animals living in captivity live longer, healthier lives than their feral counterparts. For the emotional, we can compare the behavior of domesticated animals who are treated well, with domesticated animals who are neglected, and domesticated animals who are actively mistreated, and use those observations to create a baseline of expected behavior: we know how these animals behave when they’re unhappy or abused, and we can see that this behavior is not exhibited in a well-cared for domestic pet. Therefore, we can conclude the following: slavery is immoral because something in the nature of human beings does not respond well to being in that situation. Other animals have a different nature, and do not have that quirk of evolution that makes a life of involuntary service so painful. Therefore, owning those animals is not immoral. Since slavery has inescapable connotations of immorality and suffering, it is inappropriate to use that word to describe the relationship between pets and their owners. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/185 "2013-01-10T20:27:14Z")
Nature isn’t good. Nature isn’t evil. We can’t escape nature. If you disagree on these points, I think you need to explain how. First: Nature isn’t good. When we’re trying to figure out what’s good, we should not ever look to what’s natural. Our closest relatives, chimpanzees, engage in murder, warfare, rape, and cannibalism. These acts are common among other animals. Unless you conclude that murder, warfare, rape, and cannibalism are therefore morally unproblematic, it makes no sense to equate “natural” with “good.” Similarly, evolution isn’t moving toward the Highest Good or anything. It’s just a dynamic. Nature isn’t evil either, though. Mutual assistance, altruism (on an individual, if not genetic, level), theory-of-mind-style empathy, and senses of justice also exist in the nonhuman world, and there’s some evidence that tendencies toward these behaviors may be part of our genetic heritage. We can’t look to nature to find out what to move past, either. It ain’t all red in tooth and claw. And nature has two general definitions, either of which renders its meaning morally trivial. Either nature is the sum total of the cosmos–in which we’re part of nature–or it’s the world untouched by humans–in which case we’re not part of nature. Generally I prefer the first definition, but even if you prefer the second, we can’t look to the definition for any moral guidance. If we bred dogs to behave in a particular way, all that means is that the dogs who behaved in a particular way were able to extract advantages from another species (us) that dogs who behaved differently could not extract. Similarly the animals (without intention, of course) bred us: humans who could survive the animal-borne pathogens carried by dogs, chickens, cattle, etc., were able to enjoy the benefits provided by these animals and had higher reproductive success. You can’t escape from nature. If humans bred wolves to behave a certain way, then that’s how the dogs are, naturally, **because we’re part of nature**. There are some compelling arguments against human use of animals. But the argument-from-nature is profoundly flawed. You should stop using it. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/186 "2013-01-10T21:26:24Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > This is a fantastic post, **Ulfrieda**! And I find it interesting that the OP harps so much on “captivity” and “selective breeding” when both of those are optional (and generally rather late) features of domestication. As you so nicely point out, no one’s controlling the breeding of pariah dogs - but they are DOGS, not wolves. And they’re fully free to come and go as they will; they stick around human settlements by choice, not because of coercion. > > And the same is true of many other domestic animals. Many people own mutts as pets rather than purebred dogs. Most cat owners don’t own purebred cats; they own random-bred animals. > > And most domestic animals (not simply dogs and cats) have traditionally lived in conditions where they could wander away without a lot of effort. Chickens were traditionally left free to roam. Goat and sheep herders are there more to protect the flock from predators than to keep the animals from running away. Most animals are quite content to hang out in a safe space where food’s readily available, which nicely describes an early human village. > > Maybe what is bothering the OP isn’t so much domestication as the exploitative conditions of modern “factory” farming, and urbanization in general, which has made it unsafe for both pets and small children to roam as freely as they once did? Thank you for your kind words . . . and what you say is quite true of herd animals as well – fences mostly keep them out of danger and your crops, even now. I like your point that confinement and mate selection are both quite late features of domestication. Though I think we need to be careful about the word “choice”, and only use it for individuals making decisions – when used to describe the ecology of populations it probably creates a less than accurate impression. However, animals do make decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/187 "2013-01-11T19:18:21Z")
[Look how exhausted he is](http://picpaste.com/IMAG0399-0CJBCEt8.jpg) after a day of toting barges and lifting bales. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/188 "2013-01-11T21:09:31Z")
Ahhh. So fluffy! We should turn this thread into posting pics of our pets! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/189 "2013-01-11T22:10:14Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > We should turn this thread into posting pics of our pets! “Post your pet slave!” “Um, no **Evil Captor** , we were _joking_.” ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/190 "2013-01-11T22:25:30Z")
[Hai!](http://imgc.classistatic.com/cps/poc/120211/846r1/4987707_27.jpeg) [Huge Fluffy](http://nicktherat.com/wp-content/gallery/maine-coon/maine-coon-2.jpg) [Kitty Love](http://0.tqn.com/d/cats/1/0/D/0/1/coon_pasha-shadow640x480.jpg) I want a Maine Coon, so pretty and so huge ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/191 "2013-01-11T22:27:23Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > [Huge Fluffy](http://nicktherat.com/wp-content/gallery/maine-coon/maine-coon-2.jpg) New rule: never enslave a cat big enough to eat you. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/192 "2013-01-11T22:54:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > New rule: never enslave a cat big enough to eat you. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/193 "2013-01-11T23:26:44Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I’d rather die than be enslaved all my life. you? And we all know that dogs and cats think and feel just like Pocho, have the same preferences and opinions on issues like freedom and slavery, etc. Read your dog the 13th Amendment and watch him stand up and salute. Let your cat watch the series ROOTS and he will realize how his race, like that of Kunta Kinte, has been enslaved. BTW, Pocho, why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can!😃 ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/194 "2013-01-11T23:53:45Z")
Maybe Pocho is a cat? A self aware cat. [Dr. Who anyone?](http://www.thejrexperiment.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/cat-person.jpg) Pocho would be a really cute name for a cat ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/195 "2013-01-12T00:12:32Z")
Well, as it looks like this thread is descending into silliness: [Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I’m being repressed!](http://sdrv.ms/VRFkXr) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/196 "2013-01-12T00:22:13Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I’ve actually worked with animals as my father was a vet…i won’t say I’m an expert… Yeah, I’ll second that, pocho. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/197 "2013-01-12T00:57:46Z")
Silliness is good. IMHO the thread started out silly ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/198 "2013-01-12T00:59:50Z")
Have you considered alternating puppy and kitteh fur instead? It would really show your dominance over our furry little slaves I should think… ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/199 "2013-01-12T01:13:06Z")
[The horror of pet slavery!](http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd313/Ash51a/retrieved90811005_zps189b278b.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/200 "2013-01-12T01:32:58Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > You pretend as if pets have human desires for freedom and self-awareness. My dog is perfectly happy sleeping, eating, and taking a dump. If I try to “free” him he just walks back and wants to be let inside. Once I got so lucky My Massa set me free I went to ol’ Kentucky To see what I could see I couldn’t go no farder I 'turned to Massa’s door I lub him all de harder I’ll neber leab no more! – Old antebellum minstrel-show number [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=11)