# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/241 "2014-06-19T18:41:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think this is the first time I’ve seen animal rights twaddle interbred with libertarian twaddle. > > Let’s hope the hybrid doesn’t breed true. If it does, can we keep it? I promise to walk it and feed it and clean up after it every day. And I promise to never ask for another thing in my _whoooole_ life. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/242 "2014-06-19T18:41:49Z")
Just so long as no one is keeping mitochondria enslaved. ---
**Author:** ![chemical-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@chemical-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chemical-man)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/243 "2014-06-19T18:43:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Welcome to the SDMB! > > FYI: You should note that copying and pasting whole articles violates copyright and Board rules. In the future copy snippets and link to the full article. > > It is not unnatural at all. Or at least it does not have to be. As it happens cats domesticated themselves. > > Think about this from Mother Nature’s standpoint. Different animals evolve to fill different niches and each has a strategy that helps guarantee the perpetuation of their species. In Mother Nature’s terms that is the whole game right there…continuation of the species. Animals that are poor at that (for one reason or another) go extinct. > > From a domestic dog or cat’s point of view they have merely adopted a particular survival strategy have been hugely successful doing it. They traded “freedom” for consistent meals, health care, shelter and squeaky toys. I am pretty sure they are quite content with the bargain they made. There are many dogs and cats that roam free outside and could run away if they chose. For the most part they return home of their own volition. Whack-a-Mole… thank you 🙂 and sorry about posting the full article, i did not ready the board rules and will do so. You made some good points and they are well noted… How about the idea of neutering and spraying your pets, doesn’t that seem a bit intrusive? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/244 "2014-06-19T18:49:58Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > Whack-a-Mole… thank you 🙂 and sorry about posting the full article, i did not ready the board rules and will do so. > > You made some good points and they are well noted… **How about the idea of neutering and spraying your pets, doesn’t that seem a bit intrusive?** Since you want to reduce the numbers of [del]enslaved[/del] domesticated pets, what would you suggest? Have you ever seen how miserable a female cat in heat is? And trying to deal with the constant escape attempts and yowling toms outside the windows makes the human rather cranky. And it’s spay, not spray. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/245 "2014-06-19T18:55:06Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > Whack-a-Mole… thank you 🙂 and sorry about posting the full article, i did not ready the board rules and will do so. Not a problem. In the meantime I’ve shortened the quote from that blog post. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/246 "2014-06-19T18:58:15Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > I get what you mean when you say you are your cat’s slave, I see it first hand with friends and family. What troubled me though is that most people spray or neuter their pets, and I know the practical reasons for it, but something just doesn’t sit right with me about it, it could be me projecting human values onto a non-human, but i will try to express it best i can; > > Humans breed these pets, we are somewhat in control of their population, we are indirectly affecting whether or not they are created, and after their creation we say they need us and we need them, and it’s a symbiotic relationship…but why not just stop creating them for our purpose? and having to neuter or spray them? if we didn’t create them, they wouldn’t need us… > > Regarding your second paragraph; I see what you are saying, it’s not very realistic to release them into the wild, they are not fit for it, but what about preventing future breeding and creation of domesticated pet’s. Hypothetically speaking, if all owners continued to care and love their pets as they have, but the creation of new pets be controlled… assuming that’s what people agreed on, couldn’t this be a way of reducing that large number? I don’t get the “why”. Pets are generally happy to exist; people are happy to own them. What, exactly, is being harmed by this arrangement? ---
**Author:** ![chemical-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@chemical-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chemical-man)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/247 "2014-06-19T19:07:53Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Since you want to reduce the numbers of [del]enslaved[/del] domesticated pets, what would you suggest? > Have you ever seen how miserable a female cat in heat is? And trying to deal with the constant escape attempts and yowling toms outside the windows makes the human rather cranky. > > And it’s spay, not spray. thanks for the correction, well noted. What about not continuing to breed them? if a cat is in heat and needs to go out to find another mate, then maybe the solution should be not to have them in the first place, rather than spaying or neutering them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/248 "2014-06-19T19:12:44Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > Regarding your second paragraph; I see what you are saying, it’s not very realistic to release them into the wild, they are not fit for it, but what about preventing future breeding and creation of domesticated pet’s. Hypothetically speaking, if all owners continued to care and love their pets as they have, but the creation of new pets be controlled… assuming that’s what people agreed on, couldn’t this be a way of reducing that large number? I don’t think you’ll get much argument about controlling the breeding of pets so that all dogs and cats born can have good homes. That involves the procedures you object to. My dog was intact for the first six years of her life life. I assure you she was no happier before than after. One of her puppies became a breeder also and lives nearby, and we sometimes keep her. There is no maternal bond. You shouldn’t impose your human values on dogs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/249 "2014-06-19T19:14:22Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > thanks for the correction, well noted. > > What about not continuing to breed them? if a cat is in heat and needs to go out to find another mate, then maybe the solution should be not to have them in the first place, rather than spaying or neutering them. But why? I don’t understand why ‘no pets’ is better than ‘some pets’. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/250 "2014-06-19T19:15:46Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > thanks for the correction, well noted. > > What about not continuing to breed them? if a cat is in heat and needs to go out to find another mate, **then maybe the solution should be not to have them in the first place** , rather than spaying or neutering them. Other than mass release or euthanasia, what do propose for the current population? Right now , there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of kittens and puppies too young for the surgery or not even born yet. Besides, the Internet would collapse without pictures of kittens and puppies. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![chemical-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@chemical-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chemical-man)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/251 "2014-06-19T19:16:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t get the “why”. Pets are generally happy to exist; people are happy to own them. What, exactly, is being harmed by this arrangement? Aren’t the pets being harmed when they are spayed or neutered in order for them to fit comfortably in the home? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/252 "2014-06-19T19:18:40Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > Aren’t the pets being harmed when they are spayed or neutered in order for them to fit comfortably in the home? No. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/253 "2014-06-19T19:20:36Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > How about the idea of neutering and spraying your pets, doesn’t that seem a bit intrusive? You would have to suppose that an animal that has been neutered/spayed has a concept of what was done and that they are forever after sad about their inability to have offspring. I am pretty sure no such thought ever crosses their mind. They do not have the capacity to understand this. We know however from decades or more of experience that our pets are healthier (and generally happier) if they have been neutered/spayed (particularly the females). Also, consider that captive animals have a significantly longer lifespan than their “free” brethren do. This is true for domestic dogs and cats too. Setting them free would dramatically reduce their life expectancy. > [@](#): > > Gray wolves may live thirteen years in the wild, though average lifespan is 5 to 6 years. As adults they usually die from old age or from injuries received while hunting or fighting with other wolves. In captivity they may live to be fifteen years of age. > > SOURCE: [http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Canis\_lupus/](http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Canis_lupus/) ---
**Author:** ![chemical-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@chemical-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chemical-man)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/254 "2014-06-19T19:21:32Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Other than mass release or euthanasia, what do propose for the current population? > > Right now , there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of kittens and puppies too young for the surgery or not even born yet. > > Besides, the Internet would collapse without pictures of kittens and puppies. 😃 LOL, my heart melts at pictures and videos of puppies and kittens. As for a suggestion, maybe it would have to be a long term attempt, so the effects might not be so abrupt, continuing the care for the ones that already exist would have to be essential, but preventing future breeding and perpetuation of the pet industry might reduce these large number and over time things would change…? ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/255 "2014-06-19T19:25:23Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Other than mass release or euthanasia, what do propose for the current population? > > Right now , there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of kittens and puppies too young for the surgery or not even born yet. > > Besides, the Internet would collapse without pictures of kittens and puppies. 😃 Don’t worry. Those would be replaced by pictures of people being attacked by adorable packs of discarded cats and dogs. > [@chemical-man](#): > > Aren’t the pets being harmed when they are spayed or neutered in order for them to fit comfortably in the home? Isn’t that better then having dog hunts and trapping to keep the population under control? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/256 "2014-06-19T19:29:10Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > LOL, my heart melts at pictures and videos of puppies and kittens. > > As for a suggestion, maybe it would have to be a long term attempt, so the effects might not be so abrupt, continuing the care for the ones that already exist would have to be essential, but preventing future breeding and perpetuation of the pet industry might reduce these large number and over time things would change…? So in other words, we should drive entire species to extinction. How very humane. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/257 "2014-06-19T19:31:30Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > Aren’t the pets being harmed when they are spayed or neutered in order for them to fit comfortably in the home? Not really, as other than being taken to the vets (which is necessary for their healthcare in the first place), they really have no idea that their reproductive abilities have been trifled with. If I came and neutered a human being, they would be understandably upset, because they know what that operation is, and may conciously want children in the future - it is an intollerable affront to their autonomy for me to take that step without their consent. Cats simply lack the congnitive abilities to understand this, or to feel or communicate such abstract notions as “you are interfering with my reproductive autonomy”. They are cats. It cannot be “cruelty” to inflict on them something they do not understand as “cruel” (or indeed at all). Cats breed by instict - the female goes into “heat”, which triggers the urge to breed. Nutering females removes this instinct, and there is nothing whatsoever to indicate that they miss it and pine for it. ---
**Author:** ![chemical-man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@chemical-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chemical-man)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/258 "2014-06-19T19:41:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t think you’ll get much argument about controlling the breeding of pets so that all dogs and cats born can have good homes. That involves the procedures you object to. > My dog was intact for the first six years of her life life. I assure you she was no happier before than after. One of her puppies became a breeder also and lives nearby, and we sometimes keep her. There is no maternal bond. You shouldn’t impose your human values on dogs. I see what you are saying about the practical limitations of controlling breeding, there does not seem to be a simple solution (provided a solution is what the masses are looking for). As for imposing human values on animals, dogs specifically, what other values can we have as humans? aren’t we imposing our values when we train the animals to be a certain way? aren’t we imposing human values when we fix them? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/259 "2014-06-19T19:48:27Z")
Animals don’t have a value system. They attempt to survive. Animals are under the dominion of humans…always have been, always will be. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/260 "2014-06-19T20:29:46Z")
> [@chemical-man](#): > > I see what you are saying about the practical limitations of controlling breeding, there does not seem to be a simple solution (provided a solution is what the masses are looking for). As for imposing human values on animals, dogs specifically, what other values can we have as humans? aren’t we imposing our values when we train the animals to be a certain way? aren’t we imposing human values when we fix them? Essentially, the issue is what rights an animal should have. Humans have rights, such as the right to autonomy. The question you are apparently asking is - if humans have those rights, why don’t animals? The answer, roughly, is that humans have rights commensurate with their level of conciousness - either the level they have at the moment, or what they are capable of assuming. You don’t grant a 2 year old child the same rights to autonomy as an adult, because they are not capable of exercising or even appreciating them - indeed, to do so would be both stupid and dangerous. Children of course will grow up. Similarly with animals - with the caveat that animals will never achieve a greater degree of conciousness. Their rights are of necessity less than those of an adult human. They would neither understand nor appreciate having the rights of autonomy. To give them such rights would be both stupid and dangerous. They have a lesser set of rights, due to a lesser degree of conciousness - essentially, the rights to be free from cruelty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=14)