# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/21 "2013-01-10T03:34:59Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > That trait you speak of - wanting to be with their owners- that was the cause of domestication…it’s not natural. no such thing as free range cats…allowing a domestic cat to roam free does not make it wild. lol And that’s why I said “free range” instead of “wild”. See the last part of my previous post WRT to “it’s not natural”. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/22 "2013-01-10T03:37:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not all that far left, except by American standards. And even in America there’s people well to the left of me, they just tend to be ignored. > > Symbiotic relationships. Even, yes, cattle; I suggest you consider just how successful domesticated cattle are in a Darwinian sense compared to their competitors. we are talking pets here…not food for people that eat meat for survival. same umbrella different handle 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/23 "2013-01-10T03:46:03Z")
There’s no such word as “specie”. The singular of “species” is “species”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/24 "2013-01-10T03:50:30Z")
Can we eliminate _human_ slavery before we get too worked up over this? > [@pocho](#): > > Now I find it really odd that we humans as a specie would capture another specie, domesticate it, stick a collar on it, call it a pet and claim they love that animal. Does anyone find that twisted? Species is the singular and plural. And you could say it’s weird, but it also shaped our evolution as well as the evolution of many animals, and I think you could make an extremely strong case that it’s been beneficial both for us and for the domesticated animals (at least the non-food ones). Cats and dogs have proliferated and they live all over the world. If they belong to halfway decent people, they get plenty of food, a place to sleep, medical treatment and immunization from diseases and protection from predators. That’s a lot more than you’re guaranteed in the wild. Are they less free? Yes. And while it’s possible for animals to be unhappy in their surroundings, I don’t think cats and dogs bother themselves with debates over what’s “natural” and what isn’t. It’s also a stretch to call pets enslaved when they’re not being made to do any work. > [@pocho](#): > > Same outcomes happens to any slaves that were released, or anyone released from prison, they live hard long lives… Slight correction: short hard lives. When you take animals that don’t know how to fend for themselves and release them into the wild, the results usually aren’t pretty. I’m not seeing the humane side of that idea. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/25 "2013-01-10T03:51:08Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > You’d rather died than be “enslaved” like that? Heh. Me? I’d kill to switch positions with any of my pets. They don’t have to work, worry about bills, keep up with social obligations, exercise except for fun, get to run around indecently in public, look adorable for scritches and attention, sleep endlessly, not put up with morons and basically be the utter object of most folks’ love and adoration for all their natural born lives. Yep. I would be happy to swap at any time. 😛 This. Sometimes I wonder if I have my dog trained, or he has me trained. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/26 "2013-01-10T03:55:00Z")
Dogs in particular are not just “domesticated” in the sense that they have been raised in captivity. Dog have been selectively bred (over the course of at least 15,000 years) to be “pets” or the companions of humans. Every fibre of a dog’s being compels it to seek out and enjoy the company of humans. Suggesting we emancipate dogs and let them enjoy their freedom is as sensible as emancipating toddlers–both depend on the love and care of adult humans for their physical and psychological well-being, and freeing them would be an act of cruelty, not kindness. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/27 "2013-01-10T04:00:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …It’s also a stretch to call pets enslaved when they’re not being made to do any work. house security, herding, pest control, blind people - are just some of the work we make these pets do. These poor things don’t even have an idea that their ancestors used to hunt and fend for themselves - Darwinism so to speak. Is that how we want to affect human history? We we we are on top so screw anything that can’t think for themselves? If that’s the case, fine but to own them as PETS is what I just find kind of twisted. A bear or wolf in the wild is still a wolf or bear in the wild, if it comes near your habitat and threatens your life, you take precautions…that is natural. Now to capture that wolf or bear, throw a collar around it, make it fetch a ball, and take it for walks and say you love it? no. just don’t see how that’s valid. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/28 "2013-01-10T04:04:29Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > These poor things don’t even have an idea that their ancestors used to hunt and fend for themselves - Darwinism so to speak. My ancestors did too, doesn’t mean I want to go back to it. Why would a dog? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/29 "2013-01-10T04:06:21Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > house security, herding, pest control, blind people - are just some of the work we make these pets do. Some pets do none of those things. I wouldn’t confuse a seeing eye dog with a pet either, but they’re in the same general category. > [@](#): > > These poor things don’t even have an idea that their ancestors used to hunt and fend for themselves - Darwinism so to speak. You’re misunderstanding Darwin, and more importantly you’re projecting human values onto animals. > [@](#): > > Now to capture that wolf or bear, throw a collar around it, make it fetch a ball, and take it for walks and say you love it? no. just don’t see how that’s valid. 😕 I don’t even know what that’s supposed to mean. By what terms is it not valid? What would make it valid? There are reasons humans began domesticating animals: it helped us survive and we do have a very strong need for companionship. More recently, yes, people (at least people in wealthy countries) have sort of developed a tendency to humanize their pets. They treat them like family members and things like that. That can become very silly and annoying, but I don’t think anyone is harmed by it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/30 "2013-01-10T04:08:14Z")
How the hell did you go from dogs and cats to wolves and bears? ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/31 "2013-01-10T04:10:37Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > Dogs in particular are not just “domesticated” in the sense that they have been raised in captivity. Dog have been selectively bred (over the course of at least 15,000 years) to be “pets” or the companions of humans. Every fibre of a dog’s being compels it to seek out and enjoy the company of humans. > > Suggesting we emancipate dogs and let them enjoy their freedom is as sensible as emancipating toddlers–both depend on the love and care of adult humans for their physical and psychological well-being, and freeing them would be an act of cruelty, not kindness. here’s a story I’m sure you’ve heard going around - A lady is having a dinner gathering when one of her guests inquired about why she cuts off the end of her pot roast before she cooks it. The lady answers back " because for 30 or so odd years, my mother has always done it that way and hence the tastiness of the roast." Unaware the mother was in the room, the mother quickly corrected her daughter and said “no no no, reason why I cut it off was because back in the day, the pots were smaller and couldn’t fit the roast, hence why i cut it off.” Now I believe this pet thing is also a result of things we’ve practiced in the past (domestication) but today we are saying it’s ok because NOW they can’t fend for themselves, or they wouldn’t survive if we released them. Well geez yeah…how about acknowledge that we’ve messed up that specie for our own pathetic void? :dubious: I’m just saying no matter how we want to paint it to our children, pets were bred to be slaves for us. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/32 "2013-01-10T04:11:41Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > How the hell did you go from dogs and cats to wolves and bears? I believe the dog came from bears or wolves…can’t remember which cam first. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/33 "2013-01-10T04:12:59Z")
**Pocho** , you seem to think animals had no agency when it came to domestication. That is not true. Humans have tried and failed to domesticate many species. The process isn’t merely something we forced onto certain animals; rather, it’s one that occurred naturally over the course of human interactions with a small number of species, and it worked because those species benefitted as much from the association as humans did. Do ants enslave aphids? Are clownfish the captive servants of anemones? Humans aren’t the only creatures which have entered into mutually beneficial relationships with other species, and “master/slave” is a poor way to view such relationships. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/34 "2013-01-10T04:13:10Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > There’s no such word as “specie”. The singular of “species” is “species”. i stand corrected. thanks ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/35 "2013-01-10T04:14:56Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > There’s no such word as “specie”. The singular of “species” is “species”. Specie is a perfectly cromulent word, it’s coin money (as opposed to bullion). Even my slave puppy knows that! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/36 "2013-01-10T04:15:18Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I’d rather die than be enslaved all my life. > [@pocho](#): > > Obviously they can’t talk and we’ve bred them to be subservient. how can they revolt when they don’t know how? lol I think you’re engaging in anthropomorphism, here, by attributing human motives like freedom and revolution to animals. > [@pocho](#): > > I never wanted to make a connection with human slavery and pets but I have to be honest, if we’re going to argue that it’s illegal or immoral to hold humans as slave, why do we allow it on other species. thoughts? > [@pocho](#): > > the part of the brain that says it’s ok to enslave humans is what I believe is still at work here, as the latter paragraph states, just because we don’t have human slaves anymore people thinks it’s still OK enslave animals. The analogy to human slavery is spurious. Human slaves were forced into a subservient role in human society, but they still participated in a social contract. Upon being freed, this expanded to the full measures of human life: rights and responsibilities. Animals can never participate in a social contract, they cannot grasp rights or responsibilities. They exist in a state of nature, beyond law or duty. Slaves can be freed from toil to citizenship. Animals can only be “freed” from one aspect of nature (brutal competition under the auspices of mankind) to another (brutal competition under the auspices of nature). There is no higher state for them. Pets, even more so, as their relationship with humans is a mutually beneficial one. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/37 "2013-01-10T04:16:05Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Now I believe this pet thing is also a result of things we’ve practiced in the past (domestication) but today we are saying it’s ok because NOW they can’t fend for themselves, or they wouldn’t survive if we released them. It’s true, at least for the vast majority of them. > [@](#): > > Well geez yeah…how about acknowledge that we’ve messed up that specie for our own pathetic void? :dubious: _SPECIES_. Please. And again, you’re projecting human values into this. You can’t do that and then talk about evolution and what’s “natural” at the same time. Dogs (and to a lesser extent cats) are different than they were thousands of years ago, but they’re not messed up any more than we are messed up because we developed agriculture and most of us are used to living in large civilizations. From an evolutionary standpoint they are very successful and they fit very well into their niche even if it’s a niche we largely created for them. Again, though, they also shaped our evolution. Are you going to complain to dogs about that? > [@](#): > > I’m just saying no matter how we want to paint it to our children, pets were bred to be slaves for us. Except for the work and suffering and wanting to be free parts. Other than that, though, it’s just like slavery. > [@pocho](#): > > I believe the dog came from bears or wolves…can’t remember which cam first. Erm… wolves. That should probably be obvious just from a quick glance. Wolves and dogs are canines. If humans had tried to domesticate bears, I doubt they would have lasted very long. That sounds like an incredibly stupid thing to attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/38 "2013-01-10T04:17:02Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I believe the dog came from bears or wolves…can’t remember which cam first. No, dogs were domesticated from wolves. The bear was domesticated into [this fellow](http://hot92and100.com/sites/default/files/Snuggle-Bear1.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/39 "2013-01-10T04:18:51Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > **Pocho** , you seem to think animals had no agency when it came to domestication. That is not true. Humans have tried and failed to domesticate many species. The process isn’t merely something we forced onto certain animals; rather, it’s one that occurred naturally over the course of human interactions with a small number of species, and it worked because those species benefitted as much from he association as humans did. > > Do ants enslave aphids? Are clownfish the captive servants of anemones? Humans aren’t the only creatures which have entered into mutually beneficial relationships with other species, and “master/slave” is a poor way to view such relationships. Yes agreed but we are on top of the food chain and with that power comes responsibility. Not ok with the mentality of “because they do it, why can’t we do it?” master/slave relationship over thousands of years has now become ‘companionship’ or ‘pets’. Original intention was to have dominion over it for survival purposes. How is a dog or cat helping you survive today? Wait let me guess…by it exhibiting traits we humans bred into it? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/40 "2013-01-10T04:25:31Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Yes agreed but we are on top of the food chain and with that power comes responsibility. Not ok with the mentality of “because they do it, why can’t we do it?” master/slave relationship over thousands of years has now become ‘companionship’ or ‘pets’. Original intention was to have dominion over it for survival purposes. How is a dog or cat helping you survive today? Wait let me guess…by it exhibiting traits we humans bred into it? You seem to hold animals existing in the wild as somehow purer or more noble than those in captivity. Why, exactly? Animals cannot combine for some greater purpose, they eat, breed, and die, whether on someone’s front porch, the zoo, or in the wild. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=3)