# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/41 "2013-01-10T04:28:27Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Yes agreed but we are on top of the food chain and with that power comes responsibility. Does it? Says who? Do sharks have responsibility toward smaller fish? > [@](#): > > How is a dog or cat helping you survive today? Wait let me guess…by it exhibiting traits we humans bred into it? At best they contribute to the quality of life of their owners; I agree most of us don’t need pets. And yes, they’ve been bred for those qualities. We’ve changed a bit ourselves. Why is that a problem? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/42 "2013-01-10T04:28:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > From an evolutionary standpoint they are very successful and they fit very well into their niche even if it’s a niche we largely created for them And there’s no reason to think we created those niches deliberately, rather than by accident. Black rats, Norway rats, house mice, and cockroaches are every bit as domesticated as dogs and cats, even though most of us actively seek to keep those creatures out of our houses. When they are in our cities, they ARE in their natural habitats! Ditto the pigeons which crap so prodigiously all over most of our cities. Our domesticated animals chose us as much as we chose them. And their gamble has paid off spectacularly in an evolutionary sense, as they are now among the most successful species on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/43 "2013-01-10T04:29:34Z")
I don’t own Blackjack. We’re BFFs. He lives with me. He doesn’t want to live anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/44 "2013-01-10T04:30:52Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > No, dogs were domesticated from wolves. > > The bear was domesticated into [this fellow](http://hot92and100.com/sites/default/files/Snuggle-Bear1.jpg). lol…sorry english is not my first language…I was trying to tie to them both being carnivores…same family. look up amphicyonids ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/45 "2013-01-10T04:31:14Z")
Since you think “natural” automatically means “good”, how about the only real natural law: might makes right. Even if you’re not convinced that providing an animal with an incredibly luxurious lifestyle for free or in exchange for minor work they usually ENJOY doing - because they’ve been bred to want to do it - isn’t slavery, well, in nature, the toughest animal makes the rules. That’s us. So you still shouldn’t have a problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/46 "2013-01-10T04:35:36Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Yes agreed but we are on top of the food chain and with that power comes responsibility. Not ok with the mentality of “because they do it, why can’t we do it?” master/slave relationship over thousands of years has now become ‘companionship’ or ‘pets’. Original intention was to have dominion over it for survival purposes. How is a dog or cat helping you survive today? Wait let me guess…by it exhibiting traits we humans bred into it? Cats still keep down vermin in our dwellings. Many dogs are still used for a wide variety of working purposes. But many of these creatures are now basically parasitizing us, by taking advantage of our maternal/paternal instincts to obtain food and protection from us. Since most of us don’t mind this particular form of parasitism, though, I don’t really see it as a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/47 "2013-01-10T04:35:50Z")
If dogs and cats want their freedom so much, they should get to work evolving opposable thumbs! We paid our dues, so should they! ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/48 "2013-01-10T04:36:36Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > You’d rather died than be “enslaved” like that? Heh. Me? I’d kill to switch positions with any of my pets. They don’t have to work, worry about bills, keep up with social obligations, exercise except for fun, get to run around indecently in public, look adorable for scritches and attention, sleep endlessly, not put up with morons and basically be the utter object of most folks’ love and adoration for all their natural born lives. Yep. I would be happy to swap at any time. 😛 There was a recent thread called, “Do you have servants?” I replied, “No, but my dog does.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/49 "2013-01-10T04:42:54Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > And there’s no reason to think we created those niches deliberately, rather than by accident. Black rats, Norway rats, house mice, and cockroaches are every bit as domesticated as dogs and cats, even though most of us actively seek to keep those creatures out of our houses. When they are in our cities, they ARE in their natural habitats! Ditto the pigeons which crap so prodigiously all over most of our cities. > > Our domesticated animals chose us as much as we chose them. And their gamble has paid off spectacularly in an evolutionary sense, as they are now among the most successful species on the planet. That we ACTIVELY seek to keep those pets in our house is not their original intent…not natural either. They did not choose to be subservient for life, we bred that into them. Life itself is a selfish entitiy. Now to breed our own self loathing demand into another species and say its for companionship? that I can’t fathom. Demand and supply regarding breeding of animals we’re talking here…not for food but for our own lifestyle…not survival anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/50 "2013-01-10T04:42:57Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > If you think cats are slaves then you don’t know much about cats. Cat haiku: Feed me, biped slave! I think we know which of us Two is the smarter ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/51 "2013-01-10T04:46:40Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > That we ACTIVELY seek to keep those pets in our house is not their original intent…not natural either. They did not choose to be subservient for life, we bred that into them. Life itself is a selfish entitiy. Now to breed our own self loathing demand into another species and say its for companionship? that I can’t fathom. Demand and supply regarding breeding of animals we’re talking here…not for food but for our own lifestyle…not survival anymore. I didn’t do any of that. Blackjack needed a place to live and I said he could come live with me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/52 "2013-01-10T04:46:41Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > That we ACTIVELY seek to keep those pets in our house is not their original intent…not natural either. We evolved naturally. The claim that stuff humans do isn’t natural is nonsense. And what original intent did cats have? We didn’t have houses either at first, but they’re pretty useful. Cats also do just fine in houses. > [@](#): > > Life itself is a selfish entitiy. So why is it bad if people are selfish? > [@](#): > > Now to breed our own self loathing demand into another species and say its for companionship? that I can’t fathom. Why not? This whole discussion seems to be more about your ability to understand why people have pets than anything else. > [@](#): > > Demand and supply regarding breeding of animals we’re talking here…not for food but for our own lifestyle…not survival anymore. You know the saying: man cannot live by bread alone. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/53 "2013-01-10T04:48:02Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Well geez yeah…how about acknowledge that we’ve messed up that specie for our own pathetic void? I’m just saying no matter how we want to paint it to our children, pets were bred to be slaves for us. Your assumption about the origin of dogs is incorrect. It is not as if humans went into the woods one day, grabbed a bunch of wolves, and then forcibly “domesticated” them. Can you imagine how that would have went? The term “slavery” refers to humans. Humans have free will and can fend for themselves, and make decisions for themselves. It is only possible to enslave a human by force - by preventing them from escaping with either physical restraints or with the threat of punishment if they escape and are caught. Humans who are enslaved are enslaved against their will. By comparison, dogs were not bred by humans to be slaves or companions. Evidence increasingly suggests that the relationship between early humans and wolves (later proto-dogs) was symbiotic and mutually beneficial from the start. Early human and early dogs co-existed and interacted because it helped each other, not because humans “enslaved” dogs for their own benefit. Early wolves and early humans cooperated, and that early cooperation gave rise to the present dog. There was a great article in the WSJ not so long ago. Hopefully it is not behind their paywall. Here is a link and excerpt: [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203554104577001843790269560.html#](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203554104577001843790269560.html#) > [@](#): > > This account is now falling apart in the face of new genetic analyses and recently discovered fossils. The emerging story sees humans and proto-dogs evolving together: We chose them, to be sure, but they chose us too, and our shared characteristics may well account for our seemingly unshakable mutual intimacy. > > Dogs and humans are social beings who depend on cooperation for their survival and have an uncanny ability to understand each other in order to work together. Both wolves and humans brought unique, complementary talents to a relationship that was based not on subservience and intimidation but on mutual respect. > > It seems that wolves and humans met on the trail of the large grazing animals that they both hunted, and the most social members of both species gravitated toward each other. Several scholars have even suggested that humans learned to hunt from wolves. At the least, camps with wolf sentinels had a competitive advantage over those without. And people whose socialized wolves would carry packs had an even greater advantage, since they could transport more supplies. Wolves benefited as well by gaining some relief from pup rearing, protection for themselves and their offspring, and a steadier food supply. > > The relationship between dogs and humans has been so mutually beneficial and enduring that some scholars have suggested that we—dog and human—influenced each other’s evolution. Over time, the relationship between dogs and humans evolved to the way it is now, in a quite literal sense. Your assumption that the current relationship between dogs and humans is the result of humans forcibly subjugating the entire species eons ago is incorrect. Humanity has certainly shaped the dog’s evolution more than dogs have shaped ours. But never in the history of the dog has the dog been an unwilling companion to humans. As a result of their willing service, dogs have had the benefit of millenia of human stewardship over their health, safety, and welfare. We are, after all, smarter than they are. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/54 "2013-01-10T04:50:07Z")
I wouldn’t have a problem if these animals naturally worshiped us or became parasites that depend on us. My problem is we humans are actively aware that we bred traits into them that only serves us and not their instinctual rights. Thousands of years later, we now say “oh they need us just as mush as we need them”. I’m sure if they could talk, some of them would rather naturally want to lead a pack. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/55 "2013-01-10T04:54:10Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I wouldn’t have a problem if these animals naturally worshiped us or became parasites that depend on us. They did get to that point naturally. It’s a symbiotic relationship, and it always has been. > [@](#): > > My problem is we humans are actively aware that we bred traits into them that only serves us and not their instinctual rights. What are instinctual rights? > [@](#): > > I’m sure if they could talk, some of them would rather naturally want to lead a pack. By definition most dogs don’t lead packs. A pack can only have one leader at a time. If a dog further down in the pack winds up part of a human pack instead of a dog pack, what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/56 "2013-01-10T04:55:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We evolved naturally. The claim that stuff humans do isn’t natural is nonsense. And what original intent did cats have? We didn’t have houses either at first, but they’re pretty useful. Cats also do just fine in houses. > > So why is it bad if people are selfish? i > > Why not? This whole discussion seems to be more about your ability to understand why people have pets than anything else. > > You know the saying: man cannot live by bread alone. lol I can give you many reasons why it’s bad to be selfish. this whole discussion IS about my ability to question what we all have bred to believe is ‘right’. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/57 "2013-01-10T04:57:13Z")
Serious question that Absolute touched on…where do you think dogs (and cats and other domesticated animals) came from? How do you suppose they were domesticated…and why them, and not other things? Why were we able to domesticate wolves, but not, say, bears? Leaving aside the plain fact that none of those domestic species COULD be put back into the wild or freed from their, um, odious bondage and ‘slavery’, you really need to grasp the how and why animals such as the dog became domesticated in the first place to realize how ridiculous your arguments in the OP actually are. It’s only through that understanding that you can eventually give yourself the :smack: you really need, looking back on this thread in the future. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/58 "2013-01-10T04:58:02Z")
So what’s the solution to all of this, anyway? Outlaw all dog breeding? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/59 "2013-01-10T04:59:04Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > lol I can give you many reasons why it’s bad to be selfish. You’re not answering the question. If life is selfish, why is it bad if people collectively are selfish? > [@](#): > > this whole discussion IS about my ability to question what we all have bred to believe is ‘right’. You definitely have the ability to question it. You’re just not making a sensible argument in support of your position. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/60 "2013-01-10T04:59:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They did get to that point naturally. It’s a symbiotic relationship, and it always has been. > > What are instinctual rights? > > By definition most dogs don’t lead packs. A pack can only have one leader at a time. If a dog further down in the pack winds up part of a human pack instead of a dog pack, what difference does it make? Ok so every dog born is automatically not a pack leader by your definition. How do we know which dog wants to be a leader and which has been bred to follow a leader? Let me guess, the one that wants to be a leader?..gets euthanized. yeah seems natural to me. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=4)