# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/61 "2013-01-10T05:00:50Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I wouldn’t have a problem if these animals naturally worshiped us or became parasites that depend on us. My problem is we humans are actively aware that we bred traits into them that only serves us and not their instinctual rights. Thousands of years later, we now say “oh they need us just as mush as we need them”. Please read the link I posted. The evolution of dogs is just as natural as the evolution of any other species. > [@](#): > > I’m sure if they could talk, some of them would rather naturally want to lead a pack. You are projecting human qualities - ambition, drive, ego, etc. - onto dogs. Dogs don’t work that way. Have you ever lived with or trained dogs? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/62 "2013-01-10T05:02:35Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > That we ACTIVELY seek to keep those pets in our house is not their original intent…not natural either. They did not choose to be subservient for life, we bred that into them. No on both accounts. You don’t know much about animals, do you? Most animals live in a defined territory, they don’t just roam around the countryside randomly. Domestic animals see our homes (or pastures) as their territory. They generally don’t need to be confined to keep them around, they stay of their own free will. And most domesticated animals are social species, and that’s no accident. They relate to us as they would to another member of their own species. They like our companionship. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/63 "2013-01-10T05:05:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Serious question that Absolute touched on…where do you think dogs (and cats and other domesticated animals) came from? How do you suppose they were domesticated…and why them, and not other things? Why were we able to domesticate wolves, but not, say, bears? Leaving aside the plain fact that none of those domestic species COULD be put back into the wild or freed from their, um, odious bondage and ‘slavery’, you really need to grasp the how and why animals such as the dog became domesticated in the first place to realize how ridiculous your arguments in the OP actually are. It’s only through that understanding that you can eventually give yourself the :smack: you really need, looking back on this thread in the future. > > 😛 Please divulge your knowledge of why animals were domesticated. 😃 Was it to serve their needs or ours? Coexist? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/64 "2013-01-10T05:07:07Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Ok so every dog born is automatically not a pack leader by your definition. My definition? I’m stating the o bvious here: dogs are pack animals, and the pack only has one leader at a time. So most of them don’t lead the pack. > [@](#): > > How do we know which dog wants to be a leader and which has been bred to follow a leader? We don’t. Do we need to know this? Whether they are leaders among dogs or not, they’re mostly comfortable following people. > [@](#): > > Let me guess, the one that wants to be a leader?..gets euthanized. yeah I seems natural to me. :dubious: I have no idea where you’re getting this. > [@pocho](#): > > Please divulge your knowledge of why animals were domesticated. 😃 Was it to serve their needs or ours? Coexist? Several people have already explained this. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/65 "2013-01-10T05:07:32Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Ok so every dog born is automatically not a pack leader by your definition. How do we know which dog wants to be a leader and which has been bred to follow a leader? Let me guess, the one that wants to be a leader?..gets euthanized. yeah seems natural to me. :dubious: This is absurd and has not connection to reality. We do not euthanize dogs because they are “born leaders”. There are not any dogs that want to be a leader. Just like there are no snakes that want to fly. It’s not in their nature. On the other hand, I would not mind if one day there was born a “dog Spartacus” who led the canine revolution and overthrew humanity, despite our best efforts to eradicate him at birth. Dogs would be better leaders than our current ones. You will have better luck arguing the plight of pigs, cows, chickens, etc. All animals that were forcibly domesticated in one way or another and now exist primarily to serve our needs, with little concern for theirs. Out of all species, dogs are the _worst_ you could choose to make this asinine argument for. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/66 "2013-01-10T05:11:50Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > No on both accounts. You don’t know much about animals, do you? > > Most animals live in a defined territory, they don’t just roam around the countryside randomly. Domestic animals see our homes (or pastures) as their territory. They generally don’t need to be confined to keep them around, they stay of their own free will. > > And most domesticated animals are social species, and that’s no accident. They relate to us as they would to another member of their own species. They like our companionship. How exactly do you know that something that was bred to serve man ‘likes’ our companionship? “I mean look at this slave, he loves me. I give him food, companionship and shelter. His great, great, great, great grandchildre will also continue to serve me and uphold forever as leader of the pack because that is what they do.” said all slave owners. that part of the brain that justifies one but not the other is THE same. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/67 "2013-01-10T05:15:33Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > You will have better luck arguing the plight of pigs, cows, chickens, etc. All animals that were forcibly domesticated in one way or another and now exist primarily to serve our needs, with little concern for theirs. The OP won’t even have much luck there. There are more chickens in the United States alone than there are Asian Jungle Fowl on the entire planet. The same is true of domesticated pigs, sheep, cattle, etc. and their corresponding wild counterparts. From an evolutionary standpoint, all of those species are better off as a result of domestication. It might not seem that way initially to us, but that’s because we generally don’t realize just how short and brutal the life of the average prey animal in the wild is. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/68 "2013-01-10T05:16:11Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > …There are not any dogs that want to be a leader. No dog ever wants to lead a pack? hmmm. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/69 "2013-01-10T05:16:28Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Please divulge your knowledge of why animals were domesticated. 😃 Was it to serve their needs or ours? Coexist? [Certainly](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog). Ask and ye shall receive. 😛 Basically, the fact that you seem to have no idea about the how speaks volumes about how well thought out your theories are on the subject. As Absolute said, you couldn’t have picked a worst example than the modern dog for an argument about ‘modern day slavery’. If you wanted to make what would be at least a minimally coherent point you would have picked chickens, cattle or pigs or other domesticated food animals. Mind, it would still be silly, but at least it would be coherent. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/70 "2013-01-10T05:16:36Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > “I mean look at this slave, he loves me. I give him food, companionship and shelter. His great, great, great, great grandchildre will also continue to serve me and uphold forever as leader of the pack because that is what they do.” said all slave owners. No, I don’t think all slaveowners thought their slaves loved them. And again, pets are not kept in captivity the same way humans are- though violence and trauma. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/71 "2013-01-10T05:17:24Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > The OP won’t even have much luck there. There are more chickens in the United States alone than there are Asian Jungle Fowl on the entire planet. The same is true of domesticated pigs, sheep, cattle, etc. and their corresponding wild counterparts. From an evolutionary standpoint, all of those species are better off as a result of domestication. It might not seem that way initially to us, but that’s because we generally don’t realize just how short and brutal the life of the average prey animal in the wild is. food for survival and pets for mundane voids - same umbrella different handle 😉 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/72 "2013-01-10T05:17:39Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > No dog ever wants to lead a pack? hmmm. :smack: No they don’t. And you are making yourself look foolish by continuing to bring this up. Dogs have been bred so that WE are the pack leader. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/73 "2013-01-10T05:17:54Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > How exactly do you know that something that was bred to serve man ‘likes’ our companionship? > > “I mean look at this slave, he loves me. I give him food, companionship and shelter. His great, great, great, great grandchildre will also continue to serve me and uphold forever as leader of the pack because that is what they do.” said all slave owners. > > that part of the brain that justifies one but not the other is THE same. Human slaves run away pretty much every chance hey get. Animal “slaves” don’t. That’s how you know. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/74 "2013-01-10T05:18:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I don’t think all slaveowners thought their slaves loved them. And again, pets are not kept in captivity the same way humans are- though violence and trauma. psychological trauma? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/75 "2013-01-10T05:19:43Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > How exactly do you know that something that was bred to serve man ‘likes’ our companionship? If I throw my dog out on the street, he will come back to the door, scratching, and be happy when I let him back in. I give him food, shelter, play, attention, love. He sleeps on my damn bed. He is happy to see me when I wake up in the morning. He has never tried to escape. By comparison, a human slave would try to escape, and if set free would not willingly return. That is the difference. Dogs are the descendants of wolves that willingly cooperated, co-existed and lived with humans. The wolves that did not like our companionship are still out there. The ones that did evolved into dogs. Dogs “liking” our companionship is part of their literal DNA. > [@](#): > > “I mean look at this slave, he loves me. I give him food, companionship and shelter. His great, great, great, great grandchildre will also continue to serve me and uphold forever as leader of the pack because that is what they do.” said all slave owners. > > that part of the brain that justifies one but not the other is THE same. I’m beginning to wonder what part of my brain is making me continue to participate in this farcical discussion. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/76 "2013-01-10T05:21:20Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Human slaves run away pretty much every chance hey get. Animal “slaves” don’t. That’s how you know. dogs don’t run away, cats? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/77 "2013-01-10T05:21:53Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > psychological trauma? You don’t need to traumatize an animal to get it to stay in your house. Feeding it pretty much does the trick. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/78 "2013-01-10T05:24:30Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > dogs don’t run away, cats? :smack: Cats don’t run away either. They roam short distances, then return home at very regular intervals for food and attention. Ask anyone who’s ever kept barn cats if you don’t believe me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/79 "2013-01-10T05:25:44Z")
> [@](#): > > How is a dog or cat helping you survive today? My two cats kill mice and rabbits. My dog barks if a stranger comes in the yard, he disposes of scrap food that I can’t eat and he keeps rabbits and deer out of the garden. The companionship they provide can be valuable. About 21 years ago, I was extremely depressed because I had realized that I had lost forever the woman I view as the love of my life. Many days I entertained suicidal thoughts. One of things that kept going me was my cats. I would ask myself: “Who will love them if I’m gone?” I would say symbiosis rather than slavery describes many people’s relation with their pets. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/80 "2013-01-10T05:26:39Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > dogs don’t run away, cats? :smack: Dogs run away because they like to run, and chase after squirrels, or whatever, and sometimes they run away too far to figure out how to return once they get bored. Here are two videos of dogs greeting their soldier masters…I mean, horrible enslaving tormentors…returning home from war. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-BnQzVUCiA Note that both dogs are perfectly free to run in horror at the sight of their tormentor returning home to continue their enslavement, yet for some reason they do not, and instead jump all over in frenzied, joyful excitement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=5)