# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/81 "2013-01-10T05:26:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No they don’t. And you are making yourself look foolish by continuing to bring this up. Dogs have been bred so that WE are the pack leader. A wolf naturally wants to lead. we’ve removed their natural instinct and now call them pets. see? we agree. These pets don’t even like their own natural food anymore unless it’s processed. What’s bad is to keep take what our ancestors did for survival and now spin it into an animal that depends on you for it’s mere existence. Yes that’s progress. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/82 "2013-01-10T05:27:09Z")
I agree with Artemis. I’ve served several cats over the years. Nearly all of them will take off for one to six days, but they come back. Feed a cat and it will stick around. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/83 "2013-01-10T05:28:54Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > My two cats kill mice and rabbits. > My dog barks if a stranger comes in the yard, he disposes of scrap food that I can’t eat and he keeps rabbits and deer out of the garden. > The companionship they provide can be valuable. About 21 years ago, I was extremely depressed because I had realized that I had lost forever the woman I view as the love of my life. Many days I entertained suicidal thoughts. One of things that kept going me was my cats. I would ask myself: “Who will love them if I’m gone?” > I would say symbiosis rather than slavery describes many people’s relation with their pets. I just don’t the mutual relationship here. One has dominance over the other. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/84 "2013-01-10T05:29:36Z")
> [@](#): > > These pets don’t even like their own natural food anymore unless it’s processed This is simply wrong. All of my cats have killed and devoured mice, birds, chipmunks, etc. I remember one time my dog dragged a deer skeleton in the yard and I didn’t have to feed him for several days. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/85 "2013-01-10T05:30:56Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Cats don’t run away either. They roam short distances, then return home at very regular intervals for food and attention. Ask anyone who’s ever kept barn cats if you don’t believe me. Are these not traits we bred into them? to continually seek us for food and shelter? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/86 "2013-01-10T05:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by The\_Peyote\_Coyote > My two cats kill mice and rabbits. > My dog barks if a stranger comes in the yard, he disposes of scrap food that I can’t eat and he keeps rabbits and deer out of the garden. > The companionship they provide can be valuable. About 21 years ago, I was extremely depressed because I had realized that I had lost forever the woman I view as the love of my life. Many days I entertained suicidal thoughts. One of things that kept going me was my cats. I would ask myself: “Who will love them if I’m gone?” > I would say symbiosis rather than slavery describes many people’s relation with their pets. > > I just don’t the mutual relationship here. One has dominance over the other. Yes, there is a mutal relationship. I provide food, shelter, & medical attention. They give me pest control and other services. There is a mutal exhange of affection. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/87 "2013-01-10T05:33:30Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > This is simply wrong. All of my cats have killed and devoured mice, birds, chipmunks, etc. > I remember one time my dog dragged a deer skeleton in the yard and I didn’t have to feed him for several days. Good to know…most dogs i know nowadays won’t even touch raw meat. And how did cats seem to like fish?..don’t remember felines ever fishing… could be wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/88 "2013-01-10T05:33:50Z")
Speaking of evolution - your argument in here keeps evolving, into weaker and weaker forms, as people pick it to shreds. You are now complaining that, because humans have loved and valued dogs for millenia and expended our species’ collective time, resource, and attention on caring for them and protecting them\*, dogs are now more dependent on us than their wolf ancestors, and love us in return. If you fail to realize how absurd your argument has become at this point (as if it were not absurd from the start), I’m done with this thread. - and note that, for the entirety of human history except for the past 100 years or so, this was no small thing ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/89 "2013-01-10T05:35:02Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > A wolf naturally wants to lead. we’ve removed their natural instinct and now call them pets. see? we agree. These pets don’t even like their own natural food anymore unless it’s processed. What’s bad is to keep take what our ancestors did for survival and now spin it into an animal that depends on you for it’s mere existence. Yes that’s progress. Didn’t read any of the links, did you? And you wonder why no one is taking you seriously. 😛 Only a very few wolves ‘naturally want to lead’…the rest NATURALLY want to follow. They are pack animals BY NATURE. We are the pack. The ancestors of modern dogs were the wolves that NATURALLY wanted to follow. Follow the pack. Our pack. We took that raw material and further refined it over the course of THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Years where we didn’t keep those proto-dogs in chains, unable to escape, but instead we FED THEM AND GAVE THEM SHELTER. This formed a bond between our species, a mutual bond that has strengthened over time. You are attempting not only to project your ridiculous human oriented thinking on another species but ignoring over 10,000 years of adaptation and bonding, and how the relationship between our species have alwas been about mutual advantage and need. Sorry, but you are really not covering yourself in glory here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/90 "2013-01-10T05:35:49Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > A wolf naturally wants to lead. No, they don’t. They are pack animals by nature. > [@](#): > > What’s bad is to keep take what our ancestors did for survival and now spin it into an animal that depends on you for it’s mere existence. Why is it bad? > [@pocho](#): > > I just don’t the mutual relationship here. One has dominance over the other. Again, the mutuality has been explained to you a bunch of times. If you’re not interested in reading or thinking about what people are telling you in response to your questions, this is totally pointless. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/91 "2013-01-10T05:38:29Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Are these not traits we bred into them? to continually seek us for food and shelter? No, they are not traits we have bred into them. Heck, I’ve successfully “enslaved” wild chickadees and nuthatches by offering them sunflower seeds and soot in the palm of my hand while standing still. Most animals are strongly drawn toward food, and the most easily-obtained food is favored. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/92 "2013-01-10T05:42:10Z")
ok guys…glad you’ve given me your opinion. well taken. I just don’t see how having dominion over 2 species and calling them pets, yet call it an equally beneficial relationship. lol We do this humans everyday and yet we wonder where’s it’s coming from. we’ll agree to disagree. good night ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/93 "2013-01-10T05:43:14Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > No, they are not traits we have bred into them. Heck, I’ve successfully “enslaved” wild chickadees and nuthatches by offering them sunflower seeds and soot in the palm of my hand while standing still. Most animals are strongly drawn toward food, and the most easily-obtained food is favored. we don’t call those pets now do we? i hear you…let’s just agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/94 "2013-01-10T05:44:03Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I just don’t the mutual relationship here. One has dominance over the other. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. And neither do you. There are some terrible things that some people do to some animals, but 99% or more of all dogs and cats that live with humans do so voluntarily, and benefit greatly as a result. If you don’t believe me, ask them, because very few of them could not leave their homes if they wanted to. And when they do want to, they leave and don’t come back. I don’t make Blackjack threaten to catch and eat the UPS man, he does that because it’s his home too and he doesn’t like strangers in trucks invading his territory. And he also doesn’t want anything to happen to his family. I don’t make Blackjack do anything. He does what he wants to do. And if he wants to please me because of some intensive breeding done a long time in the past, not only is that not my fault, it is my responsibility to make sure he has a good life because that same breeding did not leave him as well suited to life in the wild as his distant relatives were, and maybe some of my distant relatiives were responsible for that. The only enslaved animal I see here is that high horse you are sitting on. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/95 "2013-01-10T05:46:34Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > ok guys…glad you’ve given me your opinion. well taken. I just don’t see how having dominion over 2 species and calling them pets, yet call it an equally beneficial relationship. lol We do this humans everyday and yet we wonder where’s it’s coming from. we’ll agree to disagree. good night What’s so hard to understand? Dogs and cats get food, security, shelter and protection for themselves and their offspring. We get companionship, security and protection. Your ‘equally beneficial relationship’ is a HUMAN concept that is meaningless to another species. Well, you have fled the thread it seems, so probably for the best. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/96 "2013-01-10T06:01:22Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > That we ACTIVELY seek to keep those pets in our house is not their original intent…not natural either. They did not choose to be subservient for life, we bred that into them. Life itself is a selfish entitiy. Now to breed our own self loathing demand into another species and say its for companionship? that I can’t fathom. Demand and supply regarding breeding of animals we’re talking here…not for food but for our own lifestyle…not survival anymore. They don’t choose anything. What makes you think animals, esp dogs, consciously choose anything the way people do? Animals survive by instinct. Dog ancestors instinctively hung out with human and survived as a result, developing into the domesticated dog. Pretty cool deal. This is an article I read a couple years ago about domesticated animals and the domestic phenotype. It’s a pretty fascinating read. > **[National Geographic Magazine](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/)** > > National Geographic stories take you on a journey that’s always enlightening, often surprising, and unfailingly fascinating. > [@](#): > > The exercise of dominion over plants and animals is arguably the most consequential event in human history. Along with cultivated agriculture, the ability to raise and manage domesticated fauna—of which wolves were likely the first, but chickens, cattle, and other food species the most important—altered the human diet, paving the way for settlements and eventually nation-states to flourish. By putting humans in close contact with animals, domestication also created vectors for the diseases that shaped society. > > Yet the process by which it all happened has remained stubbornly impenetrable. Animal bones and stone carvings can sometimes shed light on the when and where each species came to live side by side with humans. More difficult to untangle is the how. Did a few curious boar creep closer to human populations, feeding off their garbage and with each successive generation becoming a little more a part of our diet? Did humans capture red jungle fowl, the ancestor of the modern chicken, straight from the wild—or did the fowl make the first approach? Out of 148 large mammal species on Earth, why have no more than 15 ever been domesticated? Why have we been able to tame and breed horses for thousands of years, but never their close relative the zebra, despite numerous attempts? > > In fact, scientists have even struggled to define domestication precisely. We all know that individual animals can be trained to exist in close contact with humans. A tiger cub fed by hand, imprinting on its captors, may grow up to treat them like family. But that tiger’s offspring, at birth, will be just as wild as its ancestors. Domestication, by contrast, is not a quality trained into an individual, but one bred into an entire population through generations of living in proximity to humans. Many if not most of the species’ wild instincts have long since been lost. Domestication, in other words, is mostly in the genes. and after reading that again, I want a pet fox ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/97 "2013-01-10T07:19:44Z")
I completely agree with **Pocho** and have liberated my cats from their oppressive place on a comforter near a radiator. I placed them in an alley where they now enjoy the brisk January air. I’m sure they are much happier despite what their plaintive meows and scrapes on the door might seem to imply. I didn’t actually do that. ---
**Author:** ![momosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@momosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/momosa)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/98 "2013-01-10T07:38:42Z")
My slaves/dogs sleep in a king size bed, with doggy steps and all…and have their own love seat to lounge in…they wake up around 8 everyday, get a milk bone & go outside …then get their breakfast, dog food and usually some granola bar treats that I eat or scrambled eggs if I do eggs or peanut butter toast ( bulldogs eating peanut butter = awesome entertainment) …then they nap until about noon , go out again, get a milk bone …nap until 3 …eat dinner (dog food) and go out again, then a greenie treat for their teeth…then goe for a walk…then nap until we eat our dinner at about 6… Then they get a few scraps, go out again…come in and they are about kaput for the day…they pretty much sleep the rest of the night and go out one more time before lights out for us…hardly a rough life and certainly I doubt they could fend for themselves if we just turned them loose… ---
**Author:** ![NamelessKing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b38774/32.png) [@NamelessKing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NamelessKing)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/99 "2013-01-10T08:20:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Can we eliminate _human_ slavery before we get too worked up over this? The two are not mutually exclusive. > [@](#): > > Species is the singular and plural. And you could say it’s weird, but it also shaped our evolution as well as the evolution of many animals, and I think you could make an extremely strong case that it’s been beneficial both for us and for the domesticated animals (at least the non-food ones). Cats and dogs have proliferated and they live all over the world. If they belong to halfway decent people, they get plenty of food, a place to sleep, medical treatment and immunization from diseases and protection from predators. That’s a lot more than you’re guaranteed in the wild. Are they less free? Yes. And while it’s possible for animals to be unhappy in their surroundings, I don’t think cats and dogs bother themselves with debates over what’s “natural” and what isn’t. It’s also a stretch to call pets enslaved when they’re not being made to do any work. This type of argument was used to justify human slavery. The idea was that even if african slaves were unfree, their masters gave them a better life than they might otherwise have. The problem is that any argument in favor of pet or animal ownership is logically the same as one for human slavery because we are animals. This of course leads to the predictable argument that animals besides us are intrinsically less intelligent, less capable of governing themselves or appreciating the freedoms that we enjoy. However, the problem with this argument is that it again can be applied to humans. Not all humans are equally intelligent, or capable of governing themselves. Indeed there is a great disparity in human intelligence, between the lowest and highest orders. Should a genius or prodigy be able to own developmentally disabled people? The gulf between their intellects and abilities to govern themselves is about as wide as between an ordinary man and a non-human animal. ---
**Author:** ![Reverse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Reverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverse)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/100 "2013-01-10T08:23:38Z")
Seeing how cats originally domesticated themselves, it would be terribly inconsiderate of us to un-domesticate them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=6)