# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/121 "2013-01-10T14:19:00Z")
But there HAS been supporting evidence. And you want the rest of the world to change their opinion to match yours, but I haven’t seen any supporting evidence for your side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/122 "2013-01-10T14:21:57Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > again… to keep saying i should change my view without citing any supporting evidence is just futile. opinions - everyone has them. picking straws in points I’ve made will only lead to more confusion. I’m not saying you should change your view. If you want to hold onto an obviously flawed theory that you cherish, in the face of multiple people telling you why it’s flawed, well, that’s your look out. Have a good time with that. But it’s clear from what you have written in this thread that you are ignorant on the subject of pets, on the history of domestication and on the psychological differences between species, and that you have zero desire to learn any of this stuff, despite multiple futile attempts to explain it to you in a variety of different ways. You mock and dismiss peoples posts when its (ironically) you who end up looking foolish by doing so, and I think most people have given up trying to educate you on any of this, but are instead just writing for the gallery or just to have fun with you. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/123 "2013-01-10T14:30:14Z")
> [@saje](#): > > I will actually marginally agree with this statement. There IS too much breeding for the sake of having cute babies, or a misguided attempt to profit. I don’t think breeding for certain traits (physical and mental) is inherently a bad thing. I also don’t think that just because something has a uterus or testicles and a cute face that it needs to reproduce. (That goes for humans as well as animals, come to think of it) > > And here you lose me again. As a broad statement, yeah maybe it has value. When applied to the topic at hand - it’s useless. Why SHOULD we question the origin, other than from a scientific interest perspective? There has been benefit to both man and animal. There are detriments too (zoonosis, anyone?). And as much as you don’t want to hear it, what’s done IS done. We can’t go back to the way things were before wolves and man cooperated (yes, they scavenged each others’ kills), and before cats decided that man was a dandy source of food and warmth. > > Hoping that people will just suddenly stop all breeding of animals is a waste of hope. It ain’t-a-gonna happen. We still want to eat beef, pork, chicken etc. Too many people value the companionship of animals (raises hand). I have deliberately bred one animal in my life, my horse. I got one foal, and I still keep and care for both mare and baby though that baby is 11 yrs old now. He’s probably far more enslaved than my “pets” are, since I ride him, and I’m sure he’d probably rather be out eating grass. > > There, now you’ve got another soapbox to climb on. Have at. it is not my hope at all to somehow ‘poof’ eradicated pet breeding. damage has already been done…which at this point may seem irreversible. but lets at least acknowledge that it’s a form of slavery, no matter how slanderous you may think the work itself means. it’s a part of our existence and we accept it willingly. Some have mentioned why not other pets. We could go into that but its easier to see why cobras, alligators and monkeys don’t make good pets. Some species exhibit a trait that can be exploited…and you’ll find men trying to take advantage of it’s use. This I don’t have an issue with, but controlling what it eats, where it sleeps, where it defecates, etc. What other animals are been domesticated from the wild as we speak? I can give you one - orcas/killer whales. man repeating the same history with the excuse of they need us just as we need them. Yes- when $ is involved, we will make any history to benefit ourselves. I just think people don’t want to associate the word slavery with modern day practices. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/124 "2013-01-10T14:37:00Z")
> [@saje](#): > > But there HAS been supporting evidence. And you want the rest of the world to change their opinion to match yours, but I haven’t seen any supporting evidence for your side of the argument. can you please cite where/when/how modern pets begin to be domesticated and which side initiated contact? forced, voluntarily, mutual? no just theories…just as I’m debating. your lack of citing original works from thousands of years ago doesn’t make me any less foolish than most. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/125 "2013-01-10T14:45:04Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > can you please cite where/when/how modern pets begin to be domesticated and which side initiated contact? forced, voluntarily, mutual? no just theories…just as I’m debating. your lack of citing original works from thousands of years ago doesn’t make me any less foolish than most. But you are not “debating.” You are simply repeating counterfactual assertions about animals. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/126 "2013-01-10T14:46:11Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > can you please cite where/when/how modern pets begin to be domesticated and which side initiated contact? forced, voluntarily, mutual? no just theories…just as I’m debating. your lack of citing original works from thousands of years ago doesn’t make me any less foolish than most. Yeah, I hear you…can’t prove that ‘macro-evolution’ stuff since no one has actually SEEN a monkey turn into a chipmunk, right? 😛 Glad you brought this up, it really helps your case a lot. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/127 "2013-01-10T14:47:04Z")
You want written documentation from Caveman OG that one such and such a date his kid found a litter of puppies after the parents had been killed, and brought one back because it was cute? And you won’t accept anything else because they are just theories? I’m done. There’s a lot more validity to a good well researched scientific theory than there is to your insistence that domestication = slavery. And captive does not = domestication. I have mixed feelings about zoos and performing animals, but that’s a very different topic. You were talking about pets. There is no way an orca is a pet. You are talking in circles, with no basis other than anthropomorphism and Disney-Syndrome, and I’m done. Besides, I have my many multiple four footed slaves to go care for. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/128 "2013-01-10T14:50:20Z")
Well, our “slaves” made a “voluntary” choice to have us as their “masters.” Every cat in the place came to us and begged to be adopted, not the other way around. **pocho** isn’t worth engaging, since there is no evidence they are arguing rationally. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/129 "2013-01-10T15:00:32Z")
as I’ve said most just have a problem with the word slavery been attached to our modern practices… ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/130 "2013-01-10T15:05:23Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > What other animals are been domesticated from the wild as we speak? I can give you one - orcas/killer whales. Odd choice, that. Go see if you can find a copy of the old NOVA episode “Killers in Eden,” which documents a case of wild orcas forming a mutually beneficial association which human whaling ships. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/131 "2013-01-10T15:08:03Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Odd choice, that. Go see if you can find a copy of the old NOVA episode “Killers in Eden,” which documents a case of wild orcas forming a mutually beneficial association which human whaling ships. see now…that is totally fine. I agree with mutual benefits but to keep them enclosed, and when to feed etc is what i’m debating here. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/132 "2013-01-10T15:08:57Z")
37 posts total , all in 12 hrs and on one forum. Joined the board 12 hrs ago too. Hm. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/133 "2013-01-10T15:12:08Z")
> [@saje](#): > > 37 posts total , all in 12 hrs and on one forum. Joined the board 12 hrs ago too. > > Hm. really helps your argument. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/134 "2013-01-10T15:16:02Z")
Oh I’m done arguing. I was just commenting on a dog with a bone, that’s all. You win. I’m a slave master. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/135 "2013-01-10T15:18:24Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Oh I’m done arguing. I was just commenting on a dog with a bone, that’s all. > > You win. I’m a slave master. still waiting on the evidence you claim…oh wait…those are theories. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/136 "2013-01-10T15:20:36Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > see now…that is totally fine.. It’s also the fist step on the road to domestication. Which is why it is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/137 "2013-01-10T15:23:41Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > It’s also the fist step on the road to domestication. Which is why it is interesting. Regardless of what step it was..at what point did we say it was ok to keep them in captivity in order for them to be continually beneficial? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/138 "2013-01-10T15:26:23Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > again… to keep saying i should change my view without citing any supporting evidence is just futile. Other people have posted facts. You have not. You’re just repeating the same claims over and over. You haven’t supported them factually and you haven’t explained the basis of a lot of your opinions- instead you’re making assertions about what’s natural and selfish without applying any clear reasoning. > [@pocho](#): > > can you please cite where/when/how modern pets begin to be domesticated and which side initiated contact? forced, voluntarily, mutual? You understand that we can’t go back in time and record this series of events, right? That nobody sat down at the fireside and wrote “Started domesticating wolves today, hope it works out?” The evidence says that the two species co-evolved and influenced each other. The relationship works to our mutual benefit. Your claim otherwise - based on what dogs have lost and the idea that somehow they’d be unhappy about this if they knew about it, which of course they don’t - doesn’t add up. That speaks for itself. > [@](#): > > no just theories… A theory is more than you have, though. And of course the theory is based on archaeological evidence and your slavery argument is based on, at most, feelings. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/139 "2013-01-10T15:27:10Z")
Theories are bigger and stronger than “evidence” because they integrate and make sense of individual facts (I presume you are using “evidence” to mean “facts,”" please correct me if I am wrong). The robustness of a given theory is directly related to how well it integrates myriad facts. It is not a squabble over opinions about the terminology used to describe a relatinship. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/140 "2013-01-10T15:33:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > We’re wasting our time. pocho simply cannot grasp the concept that _instinct_ is different than _voluntary_. True enough. I cannot get my slave to stop barking all the f’ing time. I honestly think she can’t help it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=8)