# Owning pets. Modern day slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709 "2013-01-10T02:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/141 "2013-01-10T15:36:50Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > as I’ve said most just have a problem with the word slavery been attached to our modern practices… No. I have a problem with using a word that has a particular meaning in a manner that doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the word’s actual meaning. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/142 "2013-01-10T15:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > The evidence says that the two species co-evolved and influenced each other. The relationship works to our mutual benefit. theories are facts now? lol Again not arguing the benefits…just that somehow we humans said it was ok to keep them captive in order to continue to provide said benefits. what’s hard to understand there? And for people that believe these pets don’t have some sort of higher cognitive knowledge to “know better”, how can they know, when perhaps that trait could’ve been selectively bred out? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/143 "2013-01-10T15:38:50Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > still waiting on the evidence you claim…oh wait…those are theories. Great. Another person who doesn’t understand the terms used in the Sciences. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/144 "2013-01-10T15:39:22Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > theories are facts now? lol Again not arguing the benefits…just that somehow we humans said it was ok to keep them captive in order to continue to provide said benefits. what’s hard to understand there? And for people that believe these pets don’t have some sort of higher cognitive knowledge to “know better”, how can they know, when perhaps that trait could’ve been selectively bred out? And again…so what? They aren’t human, slavery only applies to humans, your “arguments” are meaningless drivel. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/145 "2013-01-10T15:41:15Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > again… to keep saying i should change my view without citing any supporting evidence is just futile. opinions - everyone has them. picking straws in points I’ve made will only lead to more confusion. There have been plenty of cites. Did you read any of them? What do you have to say about the cites already given? ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/146 "2013-01-10T15:44:13Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > And again…so what? They aren’t human, slavery only applies to humans, your “arguments” are meaningless drivel. thanks for fortifying my argument. slavery can ONLY apply to the human species?..which is an animal. FAIL ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/147 "2013-01-10T15:44:40Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > And for people that believe these pets don’t have some sort of higher cognitive knowledge to “know better”, how can they know, when perhaps that trait could’ve been selectively bred out? You do realize that movie with the game character plumber was not a documentary and that nifty little trick where they “devolved” the characters was just a joke, do you not? ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/148 "2013-01-10T15:45:30Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > There have been plenty of cites. Did you read any of them? What do you have to say about the cites already given? can you point to them? I must have missed them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/149 "2013-01-10T15:48:26Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > thanks for fortifying my argument. slavery can ONLY apply to the human species?..which is an animal. FAIL Yes, slavery only applies to humans. It doesn’t matter that humans are animals- slavery is a human concept- like marriage or religion, for example. Animals can’t be married, and they can’t belong to a religion- and they can’t be slaves. These are concepts that only apply to humans. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/150 "2013-01-10T15:49:28Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > theories are facts now? lol The theories are based on facts. Your opinions are not. > [@](#): > > just that somehow we humans said it was ok to keep them captive in order to continue to provide said benefits. And the problem with this is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. > [@](#): > > And for people that believe these pets don’t have some sort of higher cognitive knowledge to “know better”, how can they know, when perhaps that trait could’ve been selectively bred out? You think wolves developed the kind of self-awareness only seen in humans? What’s your basis for that? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/151 "2013-01-10T15:49:54Z")
pocho: “Animal” in general usage in English refers to all animals other than humans. You said that your native language isn’t English. Perhaps you could enlighten us by stating what your native language happens to be. I daresay that language also has a similar usage. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/152 "2013-01-10T15:51:33Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > Regardless of what step it was..at what point did we say it was ok to keep them in captivity in order for them to be continually beneficial? Orcas aren’t ever going to become a domesticated species because their basic physiology (large marine mammal) makes them too difficult to keep. The same is true of several other species of “failed domestics” (elephants and cheetahs, for example - both species have a long history of being kept by people, but they also have reproductive requirements which until recently made it impossible to breed them in captivity). But the process of voluntary cooperation for mutual gain, which is what that orca pod was demonstrating, is the fist step toward domestication. And 50,000 years or so ago the same thing happened between a species of pack-hunting carnivores and a species of omnivorous primates, to the benefit of both. It’s the mutualism in the relationship between humans and our domestic animals which you keep missing. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/153 "2013-01-10T15:54:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > pocho: “Animal” in general usage in English refers to all animals other than humans. You said that your native language isn’t English. Perhaps you could enlighten us by stating what your native language happens to be. I daresay that language also has a similar usage. yoruba but have been in states for 13 years ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/154 "2013-01-10T15:56:00Z")
**pocho** , here is a little information about what in s scientific theory. Read up and educate yourself before you keep making yourself look stupid. > **[What Is a Scientific Theory?](https://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html)** > > A scientific theory is based on careful examination of facts. A few selected excerpts from the reading in case you don’t bother to actually read the whole cite: > [@](#): > > A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon. > [@](#): > > When used in non-scientific context, the word “theory” implies that something is unproven or speculative. As used in science, however, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. > > Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists’ explanations and interpretations of the facts. Scientists can have various interpretations of the outcomes of experiments and observations, but the facts, which are the cornerstone of the scientific method, do not change. You are using the non scientific definition of theory. We are using the scientific definition which implies facts. You are wrong, plain and simple. This is not a difference of opinion, you are just simply wrong about what a theory is. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/155 "2013-01-10T16:00:26Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Orcas aren’t ever going to become a domesticated species because their basic physiology (large marine mammal) makes them too difficult to keep. The same is true of several other species of “failed domestics” (elephants and cheetahs, for example - both species have a long history of being kept by people, but they also have reproductive requirements which until recently made it impossible to breed them in captivity). But the process of voluntary cooperation for mutual gain, which is what that orca pod was demonstrating, is the fist step toward domestication. And 50,000 years or so ago the same thing happened between a species of pack-hunting carnivores and a species of omnivorous primates, to the benefit of both. > > It’s the mutualism in the relationship between humans and our domestic animals which you keep missing. I’ve agreed on the mutualism part..you’re just not grasping the part of how that mutual benefit evolved into a captive animal where all it knows is man’s view of the world. You can’t keep saying it’s mutually beneficial when one side is the dominant and the other subservient especially when it involves elective breeding in a captive state. If we’re talking mutually beneficial in the wild, yes agreed. ---
**Author:** ![pocho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@pocho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocho)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/156 "2013-01-10T16:05:35Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > **pocho** , here is a little information about what in s scientific theory. Read up and educate yourself before you keep making yourself look stupid. > [What is a scientific theory? | Live Science](http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html) > A few selected excerpts from the reading in case you don’t bother to actually read the whole cite: > > You are using the non scientific definition of theory. We are using the scientific definition which implies facts. You are wrong, plain and simple. This is not a difference of opinion, you are just simply wrong about what a theory is. arguing about theories now. I know what theories are but until they’ve been proven otherwise, they’re still theories and not fact. I never said I’m theorizing on whether pets are slaves. I’m making a mere observation of what has transpired and how it has been manipulated to think it’s ok to keep another specie captive and say it’s mutually beneficial…just don’t see it. ok…we’ve diverted from original. don’t wan to lose track. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/157 "2013-01-10T16:07:00Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I’ve agreed on the mutualism part..you’re just not grasping the part of how that mutual benefit evolved into a captive animal where all it knows is man’s view of the world. > You can’t keep saying it’s mutually beneficial when one side is the dominant and the other subservient especially when it involves elective breeding in a captive state. If we’re talking mutually beneficial in the wild, yes agreed. You seem to think of the wild as something separate from human settlement. We’re a PART of nature, **pocho** , not something separate from it. A cat or dog in my house IS in its natural environment. It’s in a place where it has evolved over many generations to fit, and where there is plentiful food, safety from predators, and protection from inclement weather. You might as well argue that modern humans are “captives” because we’re not living naked in the bush as our distant ancestors once did. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/158 "2013-01-10T16:10:30Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I know what theories are but until they’ve been proven otherwise, they’re still theories and not fact. That comment alone proves you know nothing at all about what a theory in the Sciences is. By the way, here’s a simple question for you to answer with either _yes_ or _no_: In general usage in Yoruba, does the term /animal/ refer to animals other than humans? And yet another one for you: Where you grew up, was English also commonly spoken? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/159 "2013-01-10T16:14:08Z")
**pocho** , here is a little information about what in s scientific theory. Read up and educate yourself before you keep making yourself look stupid. > **[What Is a Scientific Theory?](https://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html)** > > A scientific theory is based on careful examination of facts. A few selected excerpts from the reading in case you don’t bother to actually read the whole cite: > [@](#): > > A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon. > [@](#): > > When used in non-scientific context, the word “theory” implies that something is unproven or speculative. As used in science, however, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. > > Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists’ explanations and interpretations of the facts. Scientists can have various interpretations of the outcomes of experiments and observations, but the facts, which are the cornerstone of the scientific method, do not change. You are using the non scientific definition of theory. We are using the scientific definition which implies facts. You are wrong, plain and simple. This is not a difference of opinion, you are just simply wrong about what a theory is. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709/160 "2013-01-10T16:14:10Z")
> [@pocho](#): > > I believe the dog came from bears or wolves…can’t remember which cam first. I stopped reading at this point. Post 32. If you think dogs might possibly have come from bears then you need to go educate yourself about the topic before even trying to dabate it. At least read the wiki page about dogs. Or might you be thinking about DogBearPig? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-pets-modern-day-slavery/646709.md?page=9)