You don’t really know a lot about animals, do you?
Yeah, I can no longer take this thread seriously as the OP hasn’t entertained or factually rebutted a single counter argument presented. I’ve had enough of my la la la quotient for the evening to continue participation. You all will just have to brave the Pet Freedom Revolution without me. Keep fighting the good fight!
Most here are forgetting the foundation on which human trade came to be in the mid centuries… offering weapons in return for pows in certain parts of the world. pows are treated humanely as some will say. They are fed and provided shelter and allowed to walk the yard. They are told when to sleep, when to eat. if they behave well, they’d get a treat (get a book,clean the highways, make license plates etc) All these some will call punishment for being human, fight over resources. Does not the same principle apply to behaviors we have come to expect from selective breeding? same principle applies when it comes to actively providing animals with a sure source of food and then proceed to benefit from the eventual outcome of ‘tamed’ animal’s behavior; while also forgetting that if said food was not available, animal doesn’t eat and ends up dying… which is natural order.
All I’m hearing from pro petters is because these original animals were eager and wanted to interact with us. looking for a source of food is eagerness to interact. I guess I go in the jungle to hunt for food, it’s my eagerness to interact with animals? Therefore let’s take advantage of their eagerness and pretend we love them by keeping them in a cage or confined space, feed them (buying their love), castrate them, sell them, breed for traits beneficial to human. Yes I called that a form of slavery. No matter how you will try to justify it, it remains a sore that will keep festering because it’s just not right…and doesn’t feel right. I can’t honestly believe something of another species that has been bred to love me unconditionally, DOES really love me. I know most are against pre-arranged marriages (pre-arranged pet owners lol), forced love is no love in its essence.
Reason why I haven’t respond to some is because there is tendancy for some to steer away from original post and wander off into jokes, name calling, insults and such; not into that. I just want to really get some thoughts on what everyday people today think on the matter. If it offends you that the word slavery may seem slanderous and reflecting of what you do, then I must have touched something worth exploring further, but if not, then go about your life as you see fit because there is nothing I will say that will sway your mind. With that said, I like hearing the other side, so far however it has only helped fortified my original belief that it’s a form of slavery we embarrassingly, don’t want to admit. I just wish would people wouldn’t negatively respond to someone’s ability to question why things are. Let’s just really question why 2 species out of numerous, want to be our friend unconditionally. “Sometimes history is just a forced upon agreement between the populace”. ~can’t remember who said that but i think applies here.
I can also say I have come up with some new questions based off this; was initiation of domestication (dogs/cats only) voluntary, incidental or forced? if so from which side? can’t find any solid sources for this…just theories. Then again we don’t have literature from 15000 years ago discussing the matter. Perhaps someone with solid lead can enlighten on this?
Forced.
A few packs of wolves forced themselves into our camps, and we’ve been stuck with them ever since. Cats just showed up one day; when their space-arks return you can bet the cats will leave without even a thank-you.
Really? Maybe what you think are “dogs” are actually another species entirely - like rabbits or oxen.
It’s easy to get confused.
Dog Decoded documentary, in case this hasn’t been linked to before (and it bears repeating). It touches on many misconceptions put forward in this thread. Plus it has cute puppies.
One thing is that, however “fuzzy love” is, the human-animal bond is very important. The dogs now have co-evolved with us. You may not see any tangible, physical benefit, but to many humans, dogs provide companionship, and that companionship is beneficial for the dog owner’s overall well-being. You may not need a dog, but to others, the dog gives them something they do need. And in exchange they are treated accordingly, a good symbiotic relationship.
Ha, that reminds me of a line from a joke article in an old National Lampoon with a similar tone as the OP; “Pay no attention to their whining and scratching at the door, it’s just Stockholm Syndrome.”
Domestication does not = slavery. It can = awful living conditions and abuse, but then so can plain ol’ ordinary human family life.
Cats and pigs are two domesticated animals that are just barely so - they go feral very, very easily. Dogs can too, but not as readily, and there’s greater difference in individual dogs than in cats. Funnily enough, my could-be-feral cats chose to come live with me. Of my 8, 5 were once wild, and decided that living with me was beneficial to them. One of them is curled up in a basket on my desk. He has no desire to go out and leave, though I don’t bar the door to prevent it. He has no job other than to be happy and purr.
So pocho, assuming you are right (and I don’t assume any such thing, I think he/she is clueless) what’s the solution? There are millions and millions of dogs, cattle, chickens, ducks, turkeys, horses, cats, and pigs that would not know how to function in the wild if we set them free, and would rapidly die unhappy deaths. Freeing them would also create havoc for the real wildlife out there, if that matters to you at all. Wildlife habitat is shrinking at alarming rates - and you want to add to the burden?
You really need to drop your assumptions, and with an open mind go do some serious research on animal behavior, genetics, and the history of the man-animal symbiosis. I adore my animals, and they are my friends and my family. They are not psuedo-children, they are beings in their own right and I treat them as such. They are not my slaves, I am their slave. My life revolves around their comfort and happiness, and the only thing they need to do for me is to accept my food and shelter.
You are wasting your pity. Go volunteer at an animal shelter and do somethinguseful with that angst - THOSE animals really do need help, immediate help, not theoretical rambligs.
pocho: You seem to think that every pet in the history of the world, to include every pet alive today, sits down with his morning cup of joe and looks through a newspaper of some kind to see what choices it has for the day. *Do I like having my belly scratched? No? Okay, I won’t let it happen. Do I like running in the woods? Yes. I’m off!"
That’s not how it works. Animals are not living, breathing, thinking, tiny little grown-up human beings. They are animals. Dogs and cats just so happen to be domesticated animals. As mentioned earlier in this thread, dogs essentially domesticated themselves. They didn’t get together as a group and say, “Hey! Check out those hairless apes. What say we run up to them and look cute? I bet they’ll feed us.” They simply evolved as domesticated animals. And, get this, we evolved as their domesticators, at least as their Alpha Critters in what they instinctively see as a pack.
You really should quit confusing instinct with free will.
I’ve actually worked with animals as my father was a vet…i won’t say I’m an expert but I question reasoning behind things the masses practice. If people would stop actively trading in the pets business, maybe that would help the animals that really need help protecting…ones that play an active role in the pyramid. To continually practice something without question it’s origin is what I believe plagues our society today…the ‘that’s just the way it is’ mentality really needs to stop.
Well you’ll be surprised to see many here support that dogs actually volunteered to be domesticated - without any supporting evidence.
They didn’t volunteer. Once again, quit confusing instinct with free will. Dogs, although they happen to have a brain, are not on the same step of Evolution as humans. Humans have free will, dogs don’t. Everyone else in this thread gets that. Why don’t you?
As for evidence of the fact that dogs happened to co-evolve with us: look at the entirety of human history when in contact with dogs.
That’s right -domestication is a NATURAL process. Animals which entered into a close association with man did better and outbred their wild relatives. Now they are some of the dominant species on the planet, while their wild kin teeter on the edge of extinction. It’s pure natural selection in action.
Feeding them is no small matter. We also protect them from predation, and treat their illnesses. Domestic animals generally lead longer, healthier lives than their wild kin. They gain by the association, as do we. And it’s as natural an association as hunting them. (Or is that another human-aimal interaction that “doesn’t feel right” to you? It’s surely a more exploitative one than domestication, from the point of view of the animal.)
I take it you have problems with babies, then? The love young hildren feel toward their parents is no different: it’s instinctive, and they have no choice but to feel it.
Why are you so damned fixated on dogs and cats? There are many domesticated species!
People have already provided you with a half-dozen links. The evidence to date suggests domestication was voluntary, and occurred in limited areas where unusual circumstances forced humans and animals into a close association. (Except for cats: their domestication was entirely their own doing, when they chose to move into the earliest human cities in search of rodent prey. Stored grain attracted rodents, which then attracted cats. We had little choice in the matter.)
We’re wasting our time. pocho simply cannot grasp the concept that instinct is different than voluntary.
True, but I figure some lurkers might be reading this thread and learning from it.
The OP apparently also can’t undertand that animals are just as adept at exploiting us for their gain as we are them. I wonder what he’d make of the African Honey Guide - a wild, free-living bird species which learned to exploit a uniquely human characteristic (we pay attentions to “odd” things even if they are of no immediate importance to us) to gain valuable food (bee larvae) which it couldn’t harvest on its own?
pocho, you do know human are “domesticated” too. Right?
Self Domestication link
I will actually marginally agree with this statement. There IS too much breeding for the sake of having cute babies, or a misguided attempt to profit. I don’t think breeding for certain traits (physical and mental) is inherently a bad thing. I also don’t think that just because something has a uterus or testicles and a cute face that it needs to reproduce. (That goes for humans as well as animals, come to think of it)
And here you lose me again. As a broad statement, yeah maybe it has value. When applied to the topic at hand - it’s useless. Why SHOULD we question the origin, other than from a scientific interest perspective? There has been benefit to both man and animal. There are detriments too (zoonosis, anyone?). And as much as you don’t want to hear it, what’s done IS done. We can’t go back to the way things were before wolves and man cooperated (yes, they scavenged each others’ kills), and before cats decided that man was a dandy source of food and warmth.
Hoping that people will just suddenly stop all breeding of animals is a waste of hope. It ain’t-a-gonna happen. We still want to eat beef, pork, chicken etc. Too many people value the companionship of animals (raises hand). I have deliberately bred one animal in my life, my horse. I got one foal, and I still keep and care for both mare and baby though that baby is 11 yrs old now. He’s probably far more enslaved than my “pets” are, since I ride him, and I’m sure he’d probably rather be out eating grass.
There, now you’ve got another soapbox to climb on. Have at.
I would replace ‘a lot’ with ‘anything at all’, to be honest. Anyone who can sit there with a straight face and say that they don’t know any dogs that will eat raw meat have obviously never had any experience with leaving a bunch of steaks out on a counter top with their dog left unattended in the kitchen, or had their dog dig out a gopher and snarf it down as a snack is demonstrating that they don’t know ANYTHING about dogs, who will eat meat, raw or otherwise as often as they can. As for cats, well…I guess they have never seen what cats get up to when you let them out of the house and on their own, or had them bring their human captors back presents like dead field mice or birds. 
again… to keep saying i should change my view without citing any supporting evidence is just futile. opinions - everyone has them. picking straws in points I’ve made will only lead to more confusion.
He/she claims Dad was/is a vet.