# Owning the rain: the insanity of water rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704 "2015-06-05T13:49:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/21 "2015-06-06T13:07:48Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The OP isn’t endorsing the view that this is ecosocialism–rather, they are articulating that as a parody of how they imagine some conservatives would view this story. Why? Because you say so? The OP can clarify what he meant if he wants to. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/22 "2015-06-06T15:14:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The OP isn’t endorsing the view that this is ecosocialism–rather, they are articulating that as a parody of how they imagine some conservatives would view this story. This would be a pretty inept parody, if that’s what it’s attempting: [QUOTE=Lumpy] If I hadn’t discovered that this is real, I would have scoffed at it as a right-wing paranoid’s doomsaying that conservation laws are a liberal conspiracy to impose ecosocialism on the populace. [/quote] This isn’t conservative discourse. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/23 "2015-06-07T06:21:21Z")
Heads up to anyone reading the article linked in the OP: the publication date is 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/24 "2015-06-07T13:23:25Z")
OK, mea culpa. I didn’t pick up that the rules have been modified since then. And in 20/20 hindsight it occurred to me too late that I’d conflated two things that were non sequitur. Shouldn’t post when angry… ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/25 "2015-06-07T13:40:24Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > It’s quite common for Easterners to have trouble understanding the basis for water law in the West. Rest assured that it is based on sound logic. The first principle of which is: Water flows toward money. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/26 "2015-06-07T13:56:51Z")
There was a guy who was jailed for ‘collecting rainwater’ and a bunch of folks were boohooing his conviction. It was noted that his ‘rainwater collecting’ was diverting all the rainfall to several private reservoirs he had set up. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/27 "2015-06-07T18:00:21Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > This would be a pretty inept parody, if that’s what it’s attempting: This isn’t conservative discourse. The only people I know who refer to liberal conspiracies and fears of ecosocialism (and I know several) are right-wingers. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/28 "2015-06-07T18:21:26Z")
I think it’s worth noting that there’s a difference between, say, collecting the runoff from your own roof (which is what most rain barrel setups I’ve seen do), and actually diverting the runoff from a significant area of land to a different destination. Any law anywhere that forbids the first is nonsense. Confusing the second with the first - claiming that major groundwater diversion is just “rain collecting” - is idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/29 "2015-06-07T19:14:59Z")
Water rights probably seem stupid if you’re living on a postage stamp lot in a suburb or in an apartment or condo and using municipal water, but it’s serious business. Two of my grandparents (one from each side, different states, different times) were dried out of their farms as children by upstream “neighbors” diverting water during droughts and collecting 160 acre homesteads downstream as families fled to greener pastures. Both of them traded their deeds not for cash but for _use of a truck to move_ because the land was so incredibly worthless without water and they were unable to grow any crops or support livestock. After the drought ended and water began flowing again these “neighbors” were sitting on thousands of acres of fertile and productive land and became incredibly wealthy. They survived and grew up to live incredible lives, but destroying someone’s way of life for fun and profit is a bad thing that should be discouraged by society. It seems unlikely that your single personal 55 gal drum under your gutter spout makes an appreciable difference to ground or surface water levels, but as they say it’s not the poison that kills you it’s the dosage. The single piece of litter you throw out your car window doesn’t make a difference either but combined with everyone else’s it’s a big problem. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/30 "2015-06-09T01:21:12Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Ownership of property does not mean ownership of mineral rights. Why should water rights be any different? Because air and water falling from the sky are considered above the laws that deal with assets on or below ground. To understand a law take it to it’s furthest point and see how it works. If someone walks in the rain and sticks their tongue out will they get taser’d? Of course not. If someone covers 40 acres with plastic and collect all the water that would feed the wells of surrounding houses is that equitable? Now there’s an issue. It greatly affects others. The law should fall somewhere in between. There’s a reasonable expectation of at least some of the rain for personal use just as there is for air. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/31 "2015-06-09T23:44:27Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The only people I know who refer to liberal conspiracies and fears of ecosocialism (and I know several) are right-wingers. Hey, I don’t subscribe to those views, I just read them at the newsstand. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/32 "2015-06-10T00:09:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its a bad law with good intentions. > > If your livelihood depended on a river and someone who owns the land upstream decides to divert it and extort you or drive you out, you’d be pissed too. If there’s no law against diverting water upstream, what’s to stop anyone from trying to divert water for their own needs? I do think that the rain collecting thing is a big over the top, but I see it as an example of a badly written law that needs to be updated. I think _diverting a river_, and _collecting rain,_ are entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/33 "2015-06-10T00:21:48Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > There was a guy who was jailed for ‘collecting rainwater’ and a bunch of folks were boohooing his conviction. It was noted that his ‘rainwater collecting’ was diverting all the rainfall to several private reservoirs he had set up. Yes, [this guy](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/16/gary-harrington-oregon-water-rainwater_n_1784378.html). Obviously, he tried to spin the story as some kind of David vs. Goliath narrative, and that he was just trying to collect a bit of rainwater. The reality was that he built three dams, including one that was 20 feet in height. Furthermore, he was only jailed after willfully disobeying the orders of the judge. He had plenty of opportunity to comply and instead disobeyed. Yeah, guess what–just because you own a piece of land, it doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want with that land. Property rights are more complicated than that, and that includes stuff that affects your neighbors. You also aren’t allowed to drill for oil, build a giant skyscraper, or shoot down overflying airplanes. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/34 "2015-06-10T00:28:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think _diverting a river_, and _collecting rain,_ are entirely different. They’re exactly the same thing - removing water from its existing flow path - done on different scales. As **Emtar KronJonDerSohn** said, water rights make sense on a larger scale. I Colorado (and most western states), water rights are based on prior appropriations. Further, they’re contingent on the allocated water being available, which is no sure thing. A lot of western rivers run dry seasonally, and the water rights of a lot of agricultural producers read something like, “enough water to irrigate 10 acres of alfalfa, provided there’s enough in the river for you to take it without reducing the discharge below 38 cubic feet per second.” The rain that falls on a house might contribute to surface runoff, flowing into a nearby river; it might infiltrate and make its way into the groundwater. In either of these cases, it’s contributing to an already-allocated (and likely already over-allocated) resource. Will a single homeowner installing a cistern cause a noticeable change downstream? No… but whole communities might. And if those changes mean that a rancher with a higher priority water right has to stop irrigating his alfalfa crop a week earlier, that rancher has a legally sustainable case against the homeowners. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704/35 "2015-06-10T00:45:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think _diverting a river_, and _collecting rain,_ are entirely different. But what if everyone collects the rain from their roof? Let’s say that roofs cover 30% of the area of a city (high? low? I dunno). That’s taking 30% of the water out of a watershed - which isn’t an insignificant amount (and 10% or 20% is also significant). Now in the midwest, probably not a big deal (the Mississippi and tributaries dump a lot of water into the Gulf). But the Colorado no longer flows to the sea - so taking 10% of one of its sources is going to have a non-trivial impact on users downstream. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/owning-the-rain-the-insanity-of-water-rights/721704.md?page=1)