# Ox house camel door (Hebrew alphabet) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490 "2013-02-16T11:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/21 "2013-02-18T17:57:39Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Does anyone else think the alphabet could be the outline of a story? > > There was a farmer plowing fields with an **א** ox. Looking at his **ב** tent, he saw a **ג** camel sticking its nose in the **ד** door. The farmer yelled **ה** “Hey!” as the camel was starting to pull up the tent **ו** pegs. The farmer grabbed a **ז** spear and drove it away, then built a **ח** fence around the tent to protect it, securing it with a **ט** coil of rope held in his **י** hand, and packed earth around the fence to hold it better by tamping with the **כ** sole of his foot. Then it was time for lunch, so he got his **ל** walking stick and hiked down to the **מ** water, which had various species of **נ** fish, and he fished until he caught a **ס** tastyfish. To get a drink, he then found a **ע** spring of water, so he put his **פ** mouth in it and drank. Then he went to get his **צ** fishhook to put it away, but a **ק** monkey came along and stole it. The farmer chased the monkey and hit it on the **ר** head, even though it bit him with its **ש** teeth, which left a **ת** mark. > > Or if not, how to explain the order of letters, which otherwise follows no apparent logic? If you haven’t published this as a children’s book to teach the Hebrew alphabet to English-speaking children, you should. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/22 "2013-02-18T18:47:24Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > It should probably be noted that the word Zain for Penis apparently does not stem from “Weapon”, but rather from the letter Zain itself. > > I know of two etymology versions: > > 1. Yiddish speakers used to refer to penis as Swantz (Yiddish for “Tail”). This word got translated into Hebrew, as the same word – Zanav (Tail). Then, the word Zanav itself became “dirty”, so they used the first letter only (much like “the F word” for Fuck). > > 2. Early Hebrew speakers used the word Gezzer (Carrot) for penis. When that became “dirty”, they made a cyclic transform, and referred to Zerreg instead. And when THAT became “dirty”, again the first letter alone Zain was used. > Ironically, today the word Zerreg is sometimes used as a “clean” version for Zain. In additional irony, “zanav” has been rehabilitated as well – as in the “clean” expressions "_nishbar li hazanav"_ or _“shavuz” = “shvur zanav”_ (literally, “my [tail or whatever it stands for…] is broken” – I’m sick and tired.) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/23 "2013-02-18T20:06:45Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > Yiddish speakers used to refer to penis as Swantz And suddenly, a certain scene in Spaceballs becomes even funnier. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/24 "2013-02-18T21:58:43Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > In additional irony, “zanav” has been rehabilitated as well – as in the “clean” expressions "_nishbar li hazanav"_ or _“shavuz” = “shvur zanav”_ (literally, “my [tail or whatever it stands for…] is broken” – I’m sick and tired.) I learned “shavuz” in the Israel army in the early 90s. It’s used in-Army mostly (even though most everyone is in-Army, to some degree)? And is a little out of date by now? I’ve also heard that women say it, although I never have, sometimes, hyper cutely pronounced shvuza? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/25 "2013-02-18T22:18:54Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I learned “shavuz” in the Israel army in the early 90s. It’s used in-Army mostly (even though most everyone is in-Army, to some degree)? And is a little out of date by now? I’ve also heard that women say it, although I never have, sometimes, hyper cutely pronounced shvuza? Yes, it’s army slang. And as you noted, that makes it pretty much universal… 🙂 And of course if a man is “shavuz” than a woman is “shvuza” – it’s not hyper-cute, it’s basic gender-casting of the verb 🙂 BTW – early 90’s – where? (I got out in early '93 after 7.5 years in the Air Force) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/26 "2013-02-18T22:19:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Incidentally, the word “Zayin”, which once meant spear, Wait a minute, what is the Passover song about Daddy buying a goat for a few zayin? ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/27 "2013-02-18T23:13:21Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > It should probably be noted that the word Zain for Penis apparently does not stem from “Weapon”, but rather from the letter Zain itself. > > I know of two etymology versions: > > 1. Yiddish speakers used to refer to penis as Swantz (Yiddish for “Tail”). This word got translated into Hebrew, as the same word – Zanav (Tail). Then, the word Zanav itself became “dirty”, so they used the first letter only (much like “the F word” for Fuck). > > 2. Early Hebrew speakers used the word Gezzer (Carrot) for penis. When that became “dirty”, they made a cyclic transform, and referred to Zerreg instead. And when THAT became “dirty”, again the first letter alone Zain was used. > Ironically, today the word Zerreg is sometimes used as a “clean” version for Zain. I would have thought that the written shape of the Zayin itself would be a sufficient explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/28 "2013-02-18T23:25:53Z")
I’d like to note that there’s a subtle difference between “_shavuz_” and “_nishbar li hazayin_”, even though the first is an abbreviation of the second. The first means down in the dumps; the second means fed up, and can be said in anger, as in “_Nishbar li hazayin_ with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking plane!” > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Wait a minute, what is the Passover song about Daddy buying a goat for a few zayin? [Zuzim](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuz_(Jewish_coin)). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/29 "2013-02-18T23:29:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Wait a minute, what is the Passover song about Daddy buying a goat for a few zayin? …bought for two _zuzim._ [Chad Gadya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad_Gadya) (“One kid”) – Actually, it’s Aramaic. > [@](#): > > One little goat, one little goat: > Which my father bought for two zuzim. > > Chad gadya, chad gadya, > dizabin abah bitrei zuzei. > > חַד גַּדְיָא, חַד גַּדְיָא > דְּזַבִּין אַבָּא בִּתְרֵי זוּזֵי ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/30 "2013-02-18T23:38:44Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Wait a minute, what is the Passover song about Daddy buying a goat for a few zayin? “zuzim” - different word entirely ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/31 "2013-02-18T23:39:43Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan;16020914 [Zuzim] ([Zuz (Jewish coin) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuz_(Jewish_coin))). [/QUOTE] I should have finished the Hebrew classes at the Temple. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/32 "2013-02-19T02:46:23Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Yes, it’s army slang. And as you noted, that makes it pretty much universal… 🙂 > > And of course if a man is “shavuz” than a woman is “shvuza” – it’s not hyper-cute, it’s basic gender-casting of the verb 🙂 > > BTW – early 90’s – where? (I got out in early '93 after 7.5 years in the Air Force) US volunteer, _milchemet ha mifratz_. Tel HaShomer. Israel Army is good, why? They don’t give assholes like me guns. Stuffed med kits. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/33 "2013-02-19T03:00:51Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > And suddenly, a certain scene in Spaceballs becomes even funnier. It’s actually–as you know–“shvantz.” It’s also said by a mobster in that Herzog remake of Bad Lieutenant, and is still in use in Yiddish, as a filthy word. Somewhere upthread the ordering of the letters was questioned and answered nicely. The Jews, unsurprisingly, have loads of Rabbinic stories on just that question (God has reasons for everything), but my on-line (and, more important) Talmud and Midrash chops are history. The only thing I remember is God took pity on the letter “bet,” who was upset that he didn’t lead off the alphabet, by making him the first letter of the Torah. (“‘B’ reishit”; In the beginning.) I’ve seen the story–or maybe I made this connection–used the way “the stone the builders rejected becomes the cornerstone.” But the story in Midrash is an answer to a very clear-cut question: if Hebrew is the language of creation, why does not it begin similarly? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/34 "2013-02-19T03:06:07Z")
Addendum: The opening “bet” that is in all written Torah scrolls is larger than the following letters, and I believe this is also part of “bet”'s recompense. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/35 "2013-02-19T03:49:08Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Addendum: The opening “bet” that is in all written Torah scrolls is larger than the following letters, and I believe this is also part of “bet”'s recompense. It’s funny, there used to be a tradition in Islamic calligraphy that the letter bā’ was written tall with an ascender, like a lām with a dot under it, but _only_ in the opening phrase “_Bismillāh al-Raḥmān al-Raḥīm_” at the very beginning of a book. Now it becomes apparent where they stole the idea from! IIRC it also involved some Sufi mysticism in how all the meaning of the Torah, Psalms, Gospel, and Qur’ān was condensed into the _Bismillāh_, and all of that was condensed into the first letter bā’, which was further condensed into just the dot under the bā’: **ب** — as though that single point was the singularity of the universe. The Qur’ān commentators said that God first created The Pen to write the decrees of creation, and a drop of ink dropped from The Pen, which made the dot under the letter bā’. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/36 "2013-02-19T03:50:51Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > If you haven’t published this as a children’s book to teach the Hebrew alphabet to English-speaking children, you should. Thanks :D—but my story is probably a bit too violent for little kids. I only made that up because I wanted to know if it was possible and if anyone has come up with a better story! ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/37 "2013-02-19T04:03:36Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > It’s actually–as you know–“shvantz.” It’s also said by a mobster in that Herzog remake of Bad Lieutenant, and is still in use in Yiddish, as a filthy word. > > Somewhere upthread the ordering of the letters was questioned and answered nicely. The Jews, unsurprisingly, have loads of Rabbinic stories on just that question (God has reasons for everything), but my on-line (and, more important) Talmud and Midrash chops are history. > > The only thing I remember is God took pity on the letter “bet,” who was upset that he didn’t lead off the alphabet, by making him the first letter of the Torah. (“‘B’ reishit”; In the beginning.) > > I’ve seen the story–or maybe I made this connection–used the way “the stone the builders rejected becomes the cornerstone.” > > But the story in Midrash is an answer to a very clear-cut question: if Hebrew is the language of creation, why does not it begin similarly? I read somewhere this: the Torah does not begin with the first letter, because there may or may not have been something before God created the heavens and the earth. It begins with Beth, because Beth is closed in three directions and open only to the left, the direction you read in Hebrew-- meaning that you cannot inquire what might have come before then, you can only read on from there. ---
**Author:** ![Hebrewlearner01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc79bd/32.png) [@Hebrewlearner01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hebrewlearner01)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/38 "2019-01-20T04:33:33Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Thanks :D—but my story is probably a bit too violent for little kids. I only made that up because I wanted to know if it was possible and if anyone has come up with a better story! I appreciate your easy-to-remember and lively story about the order of the Hebrew alphabets. That is interesting for kids and for new Hebrew learners like me. However, there may be a higher level involving spiritual connotations as presented by the following link: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/xGHhsVN6vC0/maxresdefault.jpg "THE SECRETS OF THE HEBREW LETTERS") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGHhsVN6vC0) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/39 "2019-01-20T23:49:44Z")
> [@Hebrewlearner01](#): > > I appreciate your easy-to-remember and lively story about the order of the Hebrew alphabets. That is interesting for kids and for new Hebrew learners like me. However, there may be a higher level involving spiritual connotations as presented by the following link: > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGHhsVN6vC0&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGHhsVN6vC0&feature=youtu.be) Hm, those guys have set out to reinvent the Qabbalah from scratch. There was no indication that they would draw upon any of the traditional Qabbalistic lore of the letters. One quibble: Although the Hebrew words for eight (_shemonah_) and fat (_shemen_) are made of the same three root letters, they’re not related. Eight comes from the Proto-Semitic root \*θmn, while fat is from the PS root \*šmn. In Hebrew, the [Proto-Semitic \*θ and \*š](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Semitic_language#Fricatives) both collapsed into š, allowing for this sort of confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490/40 "2019-01-21T01:05:21Z")
As long as we reopened this can of worms, here’s [Richard Salomon on alphabetical ordering principles](http://www.scripta.kr/scripta_v0010/?module=file&act=procFileDownload&file_srl=914&sid=d9cb5325180a8fb8ab0e60933187009a) (warning: PDF auto-download): > [@](#): > > What has become clear as a result of archaeological discoveries in recent decades is that this ordering is very ancient. An inscribed stone from ‘Izbet Ṣarṭah, datable with reasonable certainty and accuracy to the twelfth century B.C.E., contains a crudely written abecedary in the Proto-Canaanite consonant syllabary, the ancestor of the later Semitic scripts such as Phoenician, Old Hebrew and Aramaic. This abecedary agrees, except for a few details, such as the switching of ḥ and z, with the classic Semitic order […] > > But we also have even earlier evidence of this system, in the form of an abecedary in the Ugaritic cuneiform syllabary, datable to the fourteenth century B.C.E. […] Although the Ugaritic syllabary is superficially unrelated to the Proto-Canaanite syllabary, being stylistically modeled on the cuneiform scripts of Mesopotamia, it is systemically virtually identical to them, exceptionally the addition of a few letters peculiar to the Ugaritic language. Thus there can be no question that the same ordering system underlies both scripts, and that this system was already in existence at or at least not long after the time that they were invented. > > But while the antiquity of this ordering is well established, its rationale remains obscure. […] > > Among the several other proposed explanations of the North Semitic order, that of H. Tur-Sinai is of particular interest in connection with our comparative approach. He theorized that the sequence reflects an ancient pedagogical poem in which the first character of each word determined the alphabetic order, and even went so far as to reconstruct this poem on the basis of associations of the Hebrew letters with particular key words in later Talmudic traditions: thus, ‘lf bynh gml dl h’ / vh’ zn ḥy ṭb ydh … “Learn to understand: [God] does good to the poor and feeds all living creatures with bounteous hand…” (Tur-Sinai 1950: 288-9). The principle is in theory valid, since, as we have already seen, other alphabets seem to be organized in this way, but the application can be described at best as highly speculative […] > > Thus none of the three attested systems of alphabetic sequencing – phonetic arrangement, visual resemblance, and mnemonic archetype – yields a comprehensive and convincing rationale for the _a b c_ order. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ox-house-camel-door-hebrew-alphabet/650490.md?page=3)