# Oxford High school shooting in Michigan \[1-DEC-2021\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 1, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294 "2021-12-01T15:31:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/161 "2024-02-07T17:24:58Z")
Sure, you can imagine a slippery slope of parental responsibility. And I’m not sure I personally oppose holding parents responsible for their childrens’ crimes/torts in at least some circumstances. One concern of mine is whether the parents should be imprisoned. And if so, for how long. As a general rule, I think the US imprisons far too many people who are not a threat to society. Sure, this person should be punished - likely bankrupted with all of her assets distributed to the victims’ families. But those assets are likely to be negligible. I’m not sure I support imprisoning people just out of a desire for vengeance. But these parents’ actions are IMO so far beyond the pale, I have ZERO issue with them being found liable for a condition they essentially created. it would be entirely different if the kid - say - stole the gun or was lent it by a friend, and all the parents did was not search their kids’ room. Instead, they decided that the appropriate thing was to put a gun in the hands of a kid they were neglecting and whom they knew was troubled. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/162 "2024-02-07T17:39:12Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure I support imprisoning people just out of a desire for vengeance. I don’t _ever_ support imprisoning people just out of a desire for vengeance. Punishment solely for retribution can never be morally justified, however heinous the crime. Given the devastating consequences of recklessness and negligence with firearms and the utter disregard for this issue in American society, the reason that these people should be given long prison sentences is obviously for **deterrence**. The mother’s lack of remorse and failure even to acknowledge that she should have actedly differently underscores this. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/163 "2024-02-07T17:50:13Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > the reason that these people should be given long prison sentences is obviously for **deterrence**. Individual or general? Is imprisonment - at considerable taxpayer expense - the only way to ensure that THIS idiot does not give another trouble teen a handgun? I would presume that some non-custodial provisions coul dbe just about as effective. Or are you presuming that imprisoning these moronic parents will deter other moronic parents? As a very general rule, I’m not aware that harsh punishments provide effective general deterrance. The classic example is that states with death penalty or harsher penalties do not consistently show lower levels of crime (my understanding from remote college education as a PolSci major and considerable research as I changed from pro capitol punishment to anti.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/164 "2024-02-07T17:51:15Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Individual or general? I don’t know what that question means. Obviously deterrence means the effect on the future actions of other people. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > The classic example is that states with death penalty or harsher penalties do not consistently show lower levels of crime Extrapolating from the death penalty to “deterrence never works at all” is a huge leap. I don’t think these people should get the death penalty, I don’t think they should get life. But I think ten years would be proportionate to what they did. And given the high profile of the case and the novel reason for conviction, I think the effect could be very significant in putting people on notice that they will be held liable for reckless and negligent behavior with firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/165 "2024-02-07T19:07:40Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > I can’t help feeling we’re setting a dangerous precedent here. I mean maybe these parents missed some gigantic red flags, I don’t know, but do we really know how much the kid begged his parents for help? THEY bought him a handgun which he couldn’t legally buy himself. They then stored it where he had easy access to it. He’s a minor. They are responsible. I think manslaughter is the appropriate charge. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Say some kid is caught up in a gang sweep. Should the parents be arrested for not doing background checks on who the kid is hanging out with? Suppose a kid overdoses. Should the parents be charged for not regularly searching the kid’s room for drugs? Kinda happens today. Cars / houses are taken as “fruits of a criminal enterprise” when the kid is caught selling drugs. Your minor child is your responsibility. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > But these parents’ actions are IMO so far beyond the pale This. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/166 "2024-02-07T19:24:45Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t know what that question means. Obviously deterrence means the effect on the future actions of other people. Individual deterrence means punishing the individual will deter THAT INDIVIDUAL from committing similar offenses. General deterrence means punishing this individual will deter OTHER PEOPLE from committing similar offenses. I disagree with your presumption that deterrence “obviously” solely refers to general deterrence. I also am unconvinced of any suggestion that punishing one individual clearly deters other people. I also am not aware that the existence of harsh penalties generally deters other people from committing crime. You have not offered any support for your supposition. I did not > [@](#): > > Extrapolat[e] from the death penalty to “deterrence never works at all” … Instead, I stated that _“As a very general rule, I’m not aware that harsh punishments provide effective general deterrence.”_ I stand by that statement. It is hard to imagine many drug dealers are unaware of the possibility of incarceration if caught, yet the war on drugs remains un-won. And, of course I did not suggest these parents receive the death penalty. Instead, I suggested it as “the classic example” of harsh punishment not having a general deterrent effect. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/167 "2024-02-07T19:28:32Z")
Along what Dinsdale is suggesting, my understanding is that most criminology studies indicate that certainty of punishment is more effective than harsh punishments at reducing criminal activities. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/168 "2024-02-07T19:34:23Z")
TBH, when one plays a part in the deaths of multiple children, and shows no remorse, not even admitting that maybe they should have done things differently, I’m OK with retribution. I’d prefer rehabilitation and effective deterrence, but absent those things, retribution will have to do. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/169 "2024-02-07T19:34:53Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Let me clarify. I’m not trying to defend these two moronic parents. It’s just that I think this verdict could open up the path to criminally charging people for passive behaviors. Or for literally doing nothing. She’s not the first parent to be sentenced for negligent gun behavior and children. > **[Columbus parents whose 5-year-old daughter killed herself with unsecured gun...](https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/courts/2023/07/17/columbus-parents-whose-5-yr-old-fatally-shot-self-with-unsecured-gun-sentenced-to-prison-probation/70415544007/)** > > The 5-yr-old's father, Antwan Robinson, fell asleep with handgun in his waistband, ouaccording to Franklin County prosecutors. > **[Robert Crimo Jr., father of accused Highland Park shooter, begins prison...](https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/father-of-accused-highland-park-shooter-expected-to-begin-prison-sentence/)** > > Crimo pleaded guilty to seven misdemeanor counts of reckless conduct, in exchange for a sentence of 60 days in jail and 2 years probation. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/170 "2024-02-07T19:56:10Z")
I’m not suggesting anything “way out there.” [This is just the first report](https://www.house.mn.gov/hrd/pubs/deterrence.pdf) that came up in response to my search, but it seems to give a decent overview as to the complexities involved in attempting to achieve general deterrence. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/171 "2024-02-07T21:33:03Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Kinda happens today. Cars / houses are taken as “fruits of a criminal enterprise” when the kid is caught selling drugs. Your minor child is your responsibility. Unless the house and car are in the kid’s name, I’m not okay with the government doing this either. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/172 "2024-02-07T22:44:23Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Unless the house and car are in the kid’s name, I’m not okay with the government doing this either. You would be a great lawyer for The Mob. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/173 "2024-02-07T23:01:13Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > You would be a great lawyer for The Mob. [I’ll let John Oliver explain my views on this issue.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&t=114s) ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2024, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/174 "2024-02-07T23:22:43Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](#): > > Say some kid is caught up in a gang sweep. Should the parents be arrested for not doing background checks on who the kid is hanging out with? No, but if the parents _buy him a place in the gang_ then maybe they should have some culpability, yes. > [@](#): > > Suppose a kid overdoses. Should the parents be charged for not regularly searching the kid’s room for drugs? No, but if the parents _buy him the drugs_ then maybe they should have some culpability. I think those are better analogues to what happened in this case. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/175 "2024-03-05T18:25:06Z")
Mr crumbley’s trial is starting, jury selection is happening now. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/176 "2024-03-06T00:36:25Z")
May his follow the same course as hers. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/177 "2024-03-08T14:54:18Z")
> **[4 new developments from Day 1 of trial for James Crumbley, father of Oxford...](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2024/03/08/4-new-developments-from-day-1-of-trial-for-james-crumbley-father-of-oxford-high-school-shooter/)** > > Text messages, DoorDash routes, and jail communication were some of the new developments during Day 1 of the involuntary manslaughter trial for James Crumbley. Reporting is that there were threatening statements from James crumbley during one of his phone calls. This family… ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/178 "2024-03-09T00:54:03Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > threatening statements from James crumbley during one of his phone calls Could you quote that section? I don’t see it. I mean, I see the part about communication being restricted, where “something happened during one of his jail phone calls,” but that hardly requires he made a threat. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/179 "2024-03-09T01:52:38Z")
Day 1 of testimony in James Crumbley’s trial was almost an instant replay of his wife’s case, but it ended on a dramatic note, with the jury being sent home early and a visibly irritated Crumbley mouthing “no” emphatically to his lawyer. Turned out, Crumbley was caught making threatening statements on a jailhouse telephone and in electronic messages, the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office confirmed to the Free Press late Thursday, noting “his access to a phone or electronic messaging is now limited to communication with his lawyer.” Authorities did not disclose the nature of the threats or toward whom they were made. This new information surfaced late in the day Thursday during Crumbley’s trial, in which prosecutors are seeking to hold him responsible for the 2021 school shooting carried out by his son. > **[Officials drop bombshell: James Crumbley made threats over jailhouse phone](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2024/03/07/james-crumbley-trial-oxford-high-shooting-threatening-calls/72877413007/)** > > James Crumbley's trial seemed like deja vu, then prosecution disclosed a bombshell ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294/180 "2024-03-09T02:15:19Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > Turned out, Crumbley was caught making threatening statements on a jailhouse telephone and in electronic messages, the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office confirmed to the Free Press late Thursday, He seems nice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-high-school-shooting-in-michigan-1-dec-2021/955294.md?page=10)