# Oxford Shooter's Parents Charged with Involuntary Manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493 "2021-12-04T13:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/227 "2021-12-06T03:28:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > . The interiors of airport security perimeters and onboard aircraft are kept secure with thorough security measures including a variety of metal detectors and other screening devices and other special tools, and manual searches. Want to joke about hijacking or having a bomb? Get hauled in for hours of interrogation and possible arrest. If airports can do these things, so can schools. In the USA, in my opinion, schools not only _ **can** _ do it, they _ **must** _ do it. > > Most school districts can’t afford to properly pay their teachers or buy enough textbooks to go around. Where do you propose we find the money to turn every public school in the country into the Baghdad Green Zone? Not “Baghdad Green Zone”, just similar to every major airport in the world. Without getting into a huge digression about school funding issues, which is a big discussion in itself, how about getting the money from taxes on guns and ammunition? Ha ha! To think that could ever happen! 🤣 But in most rational situations, the source of the problem is also the source of funding [at least part of] the solution. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/228 "2021-12-06T03:30:30Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > Question: what is the sentence range the parents are looking at if convicted? > > I believe I’ve heard 15 years tops. Is that per count? I don’t know. My understanding is that’s per count, but that all the sentences would be served concurrently. So 15 years, tops. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/229 "2021-12-06T03:30:50Z")
So rather than spend money on more mental health counselors, social workers, guidance counselors and teachers, you think the schools should hire the TSA to thoroughly screen everyone entering the schools? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/230 "2021-12-06T03:33:18Z")
That’s a ridiculous straw man. It’s not “either, or”. One is an immediate protective measure, the other is a long-term strategy. Both are necessary, as is gun law reform. They are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/231 "2021-12-06T03:37:37Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Those are the people that need to answer that question. Passing a bunch more laws will accomplish nothing but make the masses feel like something has been done when nothing of any substance has been done. Good answer. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/232 "2021-12-06T03:38:04Z")
And if the TSA doesn’t like your look or demeanor, they can detain you indefinitely and probe you at their leisure. Of course, there may be benefits in getting the public used to this sort of treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/233 "2021-12-06T03:39:02Z")
Googling, there are over 100,000 schools in America. Horrific as these incidents are, it’s highly unlikely for any given school to experience one. So I think schools need to think carefully about what to spend money on. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/234 "2021-12-06T04:07:28Z")
And circling back to the origin of the thread, it would be more in keeping with the school mission to establish better procedures to deal with distressed students and their parents, and to address what happens when the parents themselves are not helping. Which would help deal with many other issues that are not as rare or random or indeed even as deadly, but are a concern all the same. Looking at it all from a strictly “security culture” perspective may be part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/235 "2021-12-06T05:51:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > My view is that schools are practically alone in the front lines of protecting students against gun violence, and that the answer is zero-tolerance polices to anything that might even remotely be perceived to be a threat of yet another school shooting. What does that look like? The Supreme Court has already ruled that students in schools still have constitutional protections. “Zero tolerance” sounds like a school where students have no rights. I get this is a difficult issue but I am not sure the solution is making schools akin to prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/236 "2021-12-06T06:06:17Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And circling back to the origin of the thread, it would be more in keeping with the school mission to establish better procedures to deal with distressed students and their parents, and to address what happens when the parents themselves are not helping. Which would help deal with many other issues that are not as rare or random or indeed even as deadly, but are a concern all the same. So…make parents civilly and/or criminally responsible for their kid’s actions? Not sure what you meant but I could go with that. This kid’s parents are being held criminally liable (going to the OP). From what I have read seems they have it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/237 "2021-12-06T06:28:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Not “Baghdad Green Zone”, just similar to every major airport in the world. Frankly, when you compare the number of airports doing this to the number of schools you want doing this, _you couldn’t afford this if you fired every damn teacher and administrator in the country_. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/238 "2021-12-06T07:21:59Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > My view is that schools are practically alone in the front lines of protecting students against gun violence Huh? In 2019, [about 3,800](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org) children were shot in the United States. The total number of people shot in schools that year was [40](https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-in-2019-how-many-and-where/2019/02), and that counts adults and shootings that occurred on peripheral school property. Kids spend way more than 1% of their time at school, so I suspect that schools, as they exist now, are just about the safest places kids can go. School shootings are such a tiny part of the American gun violence problem that there’d probably be more of a reduction in shootings of children from lengthening the school year and keeping them off of the streets (and out of gun-owning homes) for more time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/239 "2021-12-06T07:50:03Z")
The guy who provided the Crumbleys with their hidey-hole has identified himself. [https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/05/us/michigan-oxford-school-shooting-workspace/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/05/us/michigan-oxford-school-shooting-workspace/index.html) > [@](#): > > Though Sikora knew the Crumbleys were using his workspace, he “did not really know what was going on” and didn’t know the couple “had active warrants” when they were discovered by law enforcement and subsequently arrested, his attorney, Clarence Dass, said. > > Dass said his client “got roped into it,” but declined to say why he allowed the couple to stay in the workspace or provide additional details on Sikora’s relationship with the Crumbleys other than to say “he knew them, but not well.” > > Dass told CNN his client was at the workspace for “a short period of time,” but wasn’t there late Friday evening and the overnight hours when the Crumbleys were arrested, adding he didn’t realize the Crumbleys were in his space for “that long.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/240 "2021-12-06T08:05:41Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > In 2019, [about 3,800](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org) children were shot in the United States. The total number of people shot in schools that year was [40](https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-in-2019-how-many-and-where/2019/02), and that counts adults and shootings that occurred on peripheral school property. In your view, how many is too many kids shot before you think something should be done? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/241 "2021-12-06T08:11:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In your view, how many is too many kids shot before you think something should be done? In my view your proposal to screen the kids the way we screen at airports is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/242 "2021-12-06T08:25:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In my view your proposal to screen the kids the way we screen at airports is nonsense. Huh? Did I say that somewhere? I don’t think I did. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/243 "2021-12-06T09:19:22Z")
Sorry-that was wolfpup. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/244 "2021-12-06T09:34:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In your view, how many is too many kids shot before you think something should be done? 3,800 kids is way too many kids shot (and it was even more last year), which is why it’s good that schools are so extremely safe from that problem. Gun violence is a severe problem but school shootings border on a moral panic. Schools have already done a very good job at turning a flood into a drip. If anything, the discussion should be about rolling back some of the recent “security” innovations in schools, like active shooter ~~rehearsals~~ drills, which seem to have little if any measurable benefit but [plenty of measurable harm](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/active-shooter-drills-are-meant-prepare-students-research-finds-severe-n1239103). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/245 "2021-12-06T10:27:13Z")
If the parents wind up crowdsourcing their legal bills, I’m honestly unsure who would contribute. The NRA members I know make a huge distinction between “responsible gun owners” (themselves) and the other kind. What does the AM talk radio chatter say about this case? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2021, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/246 "2021-12-06T10:43:11Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > ISTM the matter of the thread itself is about the responsibility of the parents (and possibly the school authorities) in having intervened with the disturbed teen before anything violent happened, and that is _not exclusively_ and IMO _not even primarily_ about the gun It is _primarily_ about the fact that this kid had access to a gun. We cannot possibly expect that we can eliminate the existence of emotionally disturbed teenagers, or expect perfect parenting, or that school authorities will never make mistakes. If not this day, some other day. If not this kid, some other kid. So long as people have easy access to guns, this will keep happening. It’s not a mental health crisis or a parenting crisis or a school administration crisis. It’s an obvious _feature_ of the interpetation of the 2A that most Americans currently favor, not some mysterious unforeseeable consequence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=13)