# Oxford Shooter's Parents Charged with Involuntary Manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493 "2021-12-04T13:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/387 "2021-12-08T13:54:07Z")
And a knife takes much more forethought than a gun, I’d argue. A gun can very much be an impulse weapon more than, say, a bat, thanks to the ability to hurt or kill multiple people. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/388 "2021-12-08T14:08:40Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > My prediction is that what will happen will be consistent with the demand for retribution by a mob out for blood, led by a prosecutor who seems emotionally invested in achieving exactly that. > [@Riemann](#): > > It’s abhorrent that this is on the cards for a 15-year-old. I think (or maybe just hope) that the kid’s age will dilute that prosecutorial bloodlust, especially when so much of what’s emerging points blame at the parents. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/389 "2021-12-08T14:09:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I also predict that when it comes to the parents, where the overwhelming burden of responsibility lies, all the gun nuts will come out of the woodwork to defend them as “responsible gun owners” who did nothing wrong, and it’s all the kid’s fault. It’s entirely possible that the parents will be found not guilty on all charges. I think this is extremely unlikely. These parents seem to be exactly the types of people that most gun-rights activists abhor. Think of the difference between how the majority of the right reacted to the Arbery shooters v. Rittenhouse. That is what you will see here, I believe. A jury may find them not guilty - that will depend on the judges interpretation of the relevant law - but I think a finding of negligence leading to death is not unlikely at all. If you find a gun-rights activist vocally defending these parents as having “done nothing wrong” I would love to see it, but so far it seems to be pretty universal condemnation of their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/390 "2021-12-08T14:37:14Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The more information comes out, the more entrenched I become in my belief that this was a kid with intrinsic mental issues who was a victim of many things: lack of appropriate mental health care, a malignant gun culture, and recklessly bad parenting. … What specific facts cause you to suspect what specific “intrinsic mental issues,” as opposed to “learned” behavior from despicable role models/influences? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/391 "2021-12-08T14:39:53Z")
Maybe I’m just naïve, but I can’t see what sort of learned behavior could lead someone to cause that much destruction and pain. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/392 "2021-12-08T14:56:29Z")
Maybe not “learned behavior” so much as “learned ideology,” then taken to its “logical” conclusion and acted upon (recall: logic has only to do with the form of an argument leading to a conclusion following from its premises, it says nothing about the _truth_ of those premises). I can see many teachable/learnable ideologies that might lead one to cause so much destruction and pain. Many of them a close cousin to an ideology we already know at least one of the parents expressed. The same sort of ideology that might lead one to, say, storm the seat of a branch of government in a batshit attempt to overturn an election. Throw a hefty degree of mental illness in on top of it and the outcome doesn’t even have to be per se logical. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/393 "2021-12-08T15:26:28Z")
For anybody who hasn’t seen Jennifer Crumbley’s (the mother) open letter to Donald Trump … buckle up: [**LINK TO BLOG POST**](https://archive.vn/rRL9y) - **NSFW - LANGUAGE** [Never be tempted to think that Sarah Palin was unique] ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/394 "2021-12-08T15:34:56Z")
as ethan is 15, i believe he can not be sentenced to life without parole. he will get out of prison at some point. what he did is horrible, so many lives ruined, however i can’t help having a bit of sympathy for him. he is utterly alone now, at 15, looking at full adult maximum prison. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/395 "2021-12-08T15:41:33Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > what he did is horrible, so many lives ruined, however i can’t help having a bit of sympathy for him. he is utterly alone now, at 15, looking at full adult maximum prison. Agreed. He was failed at some point. Poor kid. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/396 "2021-12-08T16:08:55Z")
There’s a thing called [restorative justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice) that may involve a meeting between an offender and the victims of his crimes (or the survivors in this case). Would it help him? Would it help them in their grieving process? Is it “better” for the survivors to be able to know he’s in jail or to be able to question him than to know that he killed himself at the end of his attack? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/397 "2021-12-08T16:17:41Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > buckle up: You’re so mean. Watching Trump in debate, she saw “sincerity and humility”, and voted for him. That seems like a perfectly understandable mistake that any LGBT ally, pro-choice feminist atheist who wants better and cheaper healthcare could have made. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/398 "2021-12-08T16:25:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There’s a thing called [restorative justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice) that may involve a meeting between an offender and the victims of his crimes (or the survivors in this case). Would it help him? Would it help them in their grieving process? Is it “better” for the survivors to be able to know he’s in jail or to be able to question him than to know that he killed himself at the end of his attack? In order for restorative justice to serve the intended purpose in this case, this would need to be a meeting between the NRA and the victims, and the victims would include Ethan Crumbley. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/399 "2021-12-08T16:40:07Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > For anybody who hasn’t seen Jennifer Crumbley’s (the mother) open letter to Donald Trump … buckle up: > > [**LINK TO BLOG POST**](https://archive.vn/rRL9y) - **NSFW - LANGUAGE** Little did she know that, in five short years, she’d go form “Wahhhh! My son is having a hard time at math and I don’t _like_ this new _common core_ curriculum! Wahhhh!” to having her son potentially liked up for life as a mass murderer and her also facing charges of involuntary manslaughter while being one of the top contenders for Worst Parent of the Year. I wonder if she blames this on the “woke brigade,” come to get her? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/400 "2021-12-08T17:02:51Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Maybe I’m just naïve, but I can’t see what sort of learned behavior could lead someone to cause that much destruction and pain. Well, I likely lack the currently accepted verbiage, and I do not want to argue “nature vs nurture.” But I’m not exactly sure what is meant by “intrinsic mental issues.” If parents consistently display reprehensible behavior and fail to teach/encourage impulse control and other behaviors/values, I suspect that might explain a great deal of inappropriate behavior. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/401 "2021-12-08T17:06:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is ultimately about attention seeking, he wants infamy. I concur, and while “gun culture” certainly has blame, many sociologist and criminologist have blamed the rise in school shooting on the media, which have glamorized (and in some cases made into heroes) school shooters. > **[It’s time to rethink coverage of school shootings](https://www.cjr.org/united_states_project/parkland-anniversary-education-reporters.php)** > > Schoolhouses are becoming fortresses equipped with surveillance cameras and bulletproof desks, with teachers serving double duty as armed guards. Children are being pushed into terrifying drills to prepare for the possibility of a mass shooting that... Some of those trends may be fueled in part by sensational coverage of such violence. And a growing chorus of voices—including those of survivors, victims’ families, and researchers—is urging the news media to rethink the way they approach mass shootings, including those that occur at K-12 campuses and colleges… The potential harm of excessive coverage—especially that which focuses primarily on the perpetrator—isn’t theoretical, Adam Lankford, an associate professor of criminology and criminal justice at the University of Alabama, says. Such coverage is “facilitating and fueling subcultures with people who are disturbed and troubled,” according to Lankford, who co-edited[a special issue](https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/abs/62/2) of the journal _American Behavioral Scientist_ examining implications of media coverage of mass killers. While most of those individuals won’t commit shootings, he says, irresponsible media coverage is “normalizing the behavior and cultivating a fan base for those who do.” [https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/abs/62/2](https://journals.sagepub.com/toc/abs/62/2) > **[03-Lee.pdf](https://eloncdn.blob.core.windows.net/eu3/sites/153/2018/12/03-Lee.pdf)** > > 381.02 KB _Abstract_ _As the number of mass shooting and acts of violence increase nationwide, researchers have set out to_ _determine the specific underlying cause. This study explored a pattern between two variables: the spread_ _of mass shooting news on social media platforms, and the increase in these crimes. This study analyzed_ _and compared media activity from mass shootings at Columbine, Virginia Tech, and Parkland. These school_ _shootings occurred in three separate media eras, and data from a mass shooting archive was used to examine_ _the frequency of incidents over time. Evidence showed increased social media usage aligned with increased_ _numbers of mass shootings._ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/402 "2021-12-08T17:30:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I concur, and while “gun culture” certainly has blame, many sociologist and criminologist have blamed the rise in school shooting on the media, which have glamorized (and in some cases made into heroes) school shooters. How far backwards will Americans bend to pretend the problem isn’t gun culture? It isn’t violent video games, too much porn, a degraded work ethic, not enough Jeebus, or “the media” glamorizing school shooters. It’s gun culture. Period, end of story - sorry if that’s #triggering. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/403 "2021-12-08T17:40:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > many sociologist and criminologist have blamed the rise in school shooting on the media No doubt glamorizing coverage may exacerbate the problem, and I don’t want to make the perfect the enemy of the good - if we can change media coverage based on the recommendations of psychologists, lets do so. But it’s not the root cause of the problem. Equally, terrorism would be pointless without media coverage. But when people are dead and buildings fall, we can’t just pretend that things didn’t happen and stop reporting the news. I have to say, though, although I don’t find the idea at all implausible _a priori_, the research you linked is pretty weak. They look at three infamous shootings, claim that they occurred in “three separate media eras”, and infer a causal relationship. As a statistical method, this seems very dubious. What we actually see is a monotonic increase in school shootings, and a monotonic increase in the use of social media & online news consumption, with with N=1 for the number of societies analyzed. In that situation, it’s very challenging to prove a causal relationship. Although obviously the _a priori_ hypothesis of a causal relationship is more plausible, in terms of the _data_ I see nothing more compelling than [the divorce rate in Maine vs per capita consumption of margarine](https://www.datasciencecentral.com/profiles/blogs/spurious-correlations-15-examples). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/404 "2021-12-08T17:44:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Although obviously the _a priori_ hypothesis of a causal relationship is more plausible, in terms of the _data_ I see nothing more compelling than [the divorce rate in Maine vs per capita consumption of margarine](https://www.datasciencecentral.com/profiles/blogs/spurious-correlations-15-examples). No, there’s causation there - as one partner insists on subbing out butter for margarine the other partner is more likely to file for divorce ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/405 "2021-12-08T17:45:32Z")
ISTM that this is just a textbook example of the **[guns vs. butter](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/guns-butter.asp#)** debate. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/406 "2021-12-08T17:46:44Z")
And now I suspect a large share of the blame will be directed towards the school and DCFS for not doing more ahead of time. While the 2d Am folk would decry any such governmental intrusion… But the one thing we all KNOW is that our gun culture IS NOT the problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=21)