# Oxford Shooter's Parents Charged with Involuntary Manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493 "2021-12-04T13:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/427 "2021-12-09T01:54:03Z")
Honestly, I think the parents are probably more to blame than Ethan himself is. He is, after all, a child. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/428 "2021-12-09T02:00:06Z")
I sorta feel like if he’s charged as an adult, we might as well get rid of the whole concept of a juvenile offender, because if being a child doesn’t apply to this 15 year old, when on earth would it? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/429 "2021-12-09T02:26:59Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > _Sigh._ One more time. There was some question upthread as to whether the school had the legal authority to search. When I found that the DA said the school did have the legal authority, I posted that to answer the question. WHEN the DA was asked is beside that particular point. It is not beside the point. All well and good to get legal cover after the fact. It is a whole other question when you are on the spot and have to make a decision that could potentially cost your employer hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of dollars, and no district attorney is there to advise you. DAs are political creatures. If the school searched the kid’s bag and asked about guns and the NRA swooped in about how terrible that is I could see the DA saying something completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/430 "2021-12-09T02:32:55Z")
I know the law does not say this but I think use of a gun is a good marker. At 15 you cannot vote. You cannot smoke. You cannot drink alcohol. You cannot join the army. You cannot drive. You can’t get married (at least not without permission some places). You cannot make medical choices for yourself. But you can have a gun? As soon as someone puts a gun into that kid’s hands I would submit anything that kid does with that gun is done as an adult (legally). How can it be otherwise to put a weapon like that in a kid’s hands and not assume they are an adult when it comes to them using that weapon? If not the kid then the nearest adult who handed the weapon to a kid should be wholly responsible for what the kid does with that gun. Make the adult think twice before giving that gun to a child. Queue the people telling us we let them use a butter knife which can be a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/431 "2021-12-09T03:01:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As soon as someone puts a gun into that kid’s hands I would submit anything that kid does with that gun is done as an adult (legally). How can it be otherwise to put a weapon like that in a kid’s hands and not assume they are an adult when it comes to them using that weapon? I assume this is some kind of sarcastic hypothetical as of course it logically makes no sense. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If not the kid then the nearest adult who handed the weapon to a kid should be wholly responsible for what the kid does with that gun. Make the adult think twice before giving that gun to a child. Right. This is what applies, IMO. The parents need to face the full consequences of at least manslaughter. They may try to argue that the gun was secured and the kid took it without permission but the evidence belies that, as it was clearly stated to be a Christmas present for him and clearly, with his parents’ knowledge and consent, treated that way by him. That said, the kid obviously does have issues, whatever may have caused them, and needs to be detained for mental health assessment and treatment as well as for punishment consistent with being quite literally a child and not even close to being an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/432 "2021-12-09T03:11:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I assume this is some kind of sarcastic hypothetical as of course it logically makes no sense. Yes and no. I get that kids cannot fully grasp the consequences of their actions. But there needs to be accountability and if the gun nuts want to tell us that kids can have guns then those kids should be held fully accountable for their actions with those guns. Let the gun nuts explain how that makes sense. Big city gangs often use little kids precisely because they are (mostly) immune to severe consequences (and easily manipulated to do the gang’s bidding). Better to not allow kids to have guns at all. They can use them only under direct supervision of an adult who can legally possess the firearm and that adult is responsible for anything the kid does with that gun. If not then you can get child killers. See big city gangs above. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/433 "2021-12-09T03:18:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is not beside the point. There’s just no way to make it simpler than this: People asked if the school had the legal authority to search the student’s backpack. I found a video clip: Journalist Brianna Keilar:" Did the school have legal grounds to search his backpack and his locker?" DA: “Yes.” That was it. Instead of trying to drag me into some beef you have with the DA, watch the very brief (2:22) interview, and then take it up with her. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/434 "2021-12-09T03:20:21Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > There’s just no way to make it simpler than this: There is no way to make it simpler than to note the DA made that judgement after the fact. The school employee did not have the DA’s guidance (or any legal advice) at the time. This is all Monday-morning quarterbacking. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/435 "2021-12-09T03:27:43Z")
Just as a point of comparison … > **[Calgary police officer's widow speaks of 'stolen' joy as one of her partner's...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/andrew-harnett-amir-abdulrahman-murder-plea-expected-1.6275864)** > > Originally charged with first-degree murder of a Calgary police officer, Amir Abdulrahman pleaded guilty to manslaughter on Wednesday. This story is primarily about a 19-year old who pled guilty to manslaughter in the death of a police officer, though he was only a passenger in the car, but was judged to have contributed to the death. But that’s not my point. The point is that the killer – the actual driver of the car who dragged the officer and eventually caused him to be flung into traffic – was 17 and _ **cannot** _ be charged as an adult; in fact, under the Youth Offenders Act, he can’t even be identified. To be fair, after conviction a juvenile offender could in fact be sentenced as an adult if the offense was extremely egregious, but I believe that’s pretty rare. In both cases here resulting in the death of a decorated police officer who leaves behind a pregnant wife, neither of the assholes has any known excuse for their behavior, and this Amir fellow already had a warrant out for his arrest for previous offenses, hence why he was so anxious for the driver to floor it and get away. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/436 "2021-12-09T07:48:08Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Ohhhhh, no, can’t have that. **Like @pkbites said, the reason these school shootings happen is** because of lily-livered prosecutors who indulge in plea bargaining rather than prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law, or those weak-kneed liberal judges who hand out slaps-on-the-wrist instead of double-life sentences without the possibility of _lunch,_ never mind _parole._ I never fucking said that and you fucking know it! Just to remind the less obnoxious dopers here, I said that it does no good to pass more laws when the laws we have are not being adequately enforced. I did not equate that to preventing this specific tragedy. Criminal laws are reactive. They don’t prevent anything. They just result in consequences for those who break them. But many times those consequences are not issued. Over the years I have arrested plenty of convicted felons for possessing a firearm only for the case to result in probation instead of incarceration. Some of you babble about wanting to keep guns out of the wrong hands, but when the wrong hands are caught with a gun you don’t want to them to suffer serious consequences for their actions and then wonder why the wrong hands keep doing what they do. It’s insane. There were several laws that were disobeyed that resulted in those students murder. Which knee jerk laws could have been in place that would have actually prevented that mentally ill and/or evil kid from eventually acquiring a firearm and killing those other kids? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/437 "2021-12-09T08:35:51Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Some of you babble about wanting to keep guns out of the wrong hands, but when the wrong hands are caught with a gun you don’t want to them to suffer serious consequences for their actions and then wonder why the wrong hands keep doing what they do. It’s insane. Cite? I definitely think that if someone is caught with a gun when they shouldn’t have it they should suffer serious consequences and I’ve seen no evidence that anyone on the pro gun control side of the debate disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/438 "2021-12-09T09:37:11Z")
You clearly are having trouble understanding this very, very simple concept: Someone wondered if the school had the legal authority to search the kid’s backpack. It was a factual question. I saw a factual answer and posted it. You want to argue that a district attorney isn’t a legal authority, and I shouldn’t have cited one? Uh, OK. You want to argue anything beyond that? Knock yourself out. Just find someone interested. I’m not that person. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/439 "2021-12-09T11:50:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cite? I definitely think that if someone is caught with a gun when they shouldn’t have it they should suffer serious consequences and I’ve seen no evidence that anyone on the pro gun control side of the debate disagrees. Then why the silence and lack of activity? The NRA and GOA frequently put out articles and press releases related to lack of prosecution for gun crimes. Everytown, Gifford, Million Moms, Brady? all they do is clamor for more and more laws and never take prosecutors and judges to task for milquetoast enforcement of existing laws. Let me walk you through a common occurrence: A prohibited person is caught with a firearm either on their person or in an area of their control. They could be picked up on something as minor as a shoplifting hitch or as major as being a suspect in an armed robbery. The police add the possession of a firearm to the Arrest & Detention Report (ADR) along with whatever other charges there are. Felon or Domestic Violence convict in possession of a firearm in my state is a Class G felony, punishable by 10 years imprisonment. Under federal law it is punishable by an additional 10 years imprisonment. First of all, unless there are other federal charges the feds never charge criminals who are only arrested for state charges. I’ve never seen it happen. So all these congress critters that are bitching for new gun laws I ask why? The ones already on the books aren’t being prosecuted to their full extent. Then what happens is the prosecutor will drop the gun possession or it will only be read in to the charges list but not prosecuted. This happens 9 out of 10 times. The one time the gun charge is pushed the judges muck it up. Say a convicted felon get’s convicted of a theft and possession of a firearm and gets 3 years for the theft. Most of the time the judge will also sentence them to an equal 3 years for the gun charge (rather than the full 10) but have them serve it concurrent to the theft charge instead of consecutively. **In other words, the felon does not do any extra time for being in possession of a firearm!** Why on Earth would a felon not arm themselves when they know if caught there aren’t any real additional consequences? I see this happen time, and time again. Rather than trying to debate about this, how about joining me in being outraged by it and agree that passing new laws does no good if we are not adequately enforcing those already on the books? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/440 "2021-12-09T12:52:38Z")
The NRA also puts out a lot of BS about freedom seeds. They also illegally funnel Russian money to Republicans. They are also run by embezzlers. I mean, who in the world would take the NRA seriously? Giffords: > **[Giffords Responds to Department of Justice Plan to Address Gun Violence](https://giffords.org/press-release/2019/11/justice-department-gun-plan/)** > >  Department of Justice plan fails to prioritize effective gun safety laws  November 13, 2019 — Giffords, the gun safety organization founded by " and provide adequate resources to ATF and other law enforcement agencies to enforce those laws." I think Million Moms is a pro-fascism organization, I think you meant Moms Demand Action: Now I could not quickly find anything explicitly talking about enforcement for them; however, there is _nothing_ on their website that would remotely suggest that they want perpetrators of gun violence to be handled with kid gloves. One of the biggest things they’re calling for is increased enforcement of police officers who seem rather cavalier with the use of force, and disarming domestic abusers. I mean I cannot imagine why they would call for these things but not want them enforced? Brady: > **[Enforcement](https://www.bradyunited.org/issue/enforcement)** > > Brady is uniting Americans against gun violence. We invite everyone who wants to end our epidemic of gun violence to take action, not sides. So, ummm, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/441 "2021-12-09T13:02:16Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Then why the silence and lack of activity? From who? Your side has every bit as much ability to enforce gun laws as the other side. Why don’t you gun lovers start enforcing these laws that you claim will reduce gun crime? Get off your asses and actually make them work. Nobody on the gun control side is asking for more laws because they hate gun shaped pieces of metal. They’re asking for more laws because the laws we have don’t work. We already have the most heavily incarcerated population this side of Russia, if “effective gun law enforcement” means putting another million Americans in prison, maybe the gun laws we have aren’t so great. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/442 "2021-12-09T14:23:54Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Why on Earth would a felon not arm themselves when they know if caught there aren’t any real additional consequences? Even under the scenarios you provide, there are still potentially additional consequences. Merely being in possession of a firearm marks them as committing a crime, and therefore justifies the police searching them and their immediate area incident to that arrest. Many times where there is a charge of drug possession and felon with a gun, the gun was discovered first. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/443 "2021-12-09T14:29:07Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Maybe I’m just naïve, but I can’t see what sort of learned behavior could lead someone to cause that much destruction and pain. The video game. If he spent hours willfully using a virtual gun to produce blood and gore on a screen and wanted to do it himself by creating his own game scenarios. Then, given a weapon, the scenario could become a reality. It was within his power to actually make it happen. Video presentations are a considered a successful tool in modern education. Why would we ignore video games as contributing to learned behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/444 "2021-12-09T14:49:17Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Why would we ignore video games as contributing to learned behavior? Why do you continue to ignore the lack of studies to back up the spurious claim of video games leading to murderously violent actions? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/445 "2021-12-09T15:10:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why do you continue to ignore the lack of studies to back up the spurious claim of video games leading to murderously violent actions? Because a paucity of investigation is not a proof. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/446 "2021-12-09T15:12:28Z")
You’re looking for proof that video games do _not_ cause violence? You may be looking for a long time as it is quite difficult to prove a negative. Paucity is not exactly the word I would use to describe this research area and the general findings across thousands and thousands and thousands of papers is that overall video game activity does not cause violence. [https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C5&q=video+games+cause+violence&btnG=&oq=video+games+](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=video+games+cause+violence&btnG=&oq=video+games+) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=23)