# Oxford Shooter's Parents Charged with Involuntary Manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493 "2021-12-04T13:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/508 "2021-12-09T18:41:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you eat cereal, and then rape someone, is the cereal part of the cause? Rape Nuts? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/509 "2021-12-09T18:42:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “The definition of insanity is **doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results**. > > Gun control laws have not worked in America… so let’s pass more! I think you fail to understand the situation. I don’t want more of the same worthless laws that our gun loving populace has deigned to allow. I want laws that actually work, laws that have worked and continue to work in places that don’t think 15,000 gun murders a year is normal. Enforcing **your** gun laws won’t work, because they’ve never worked, there’s never been a single moment in our nation’s history where your idea of a “sensible gun law” or a “draconian gun law” has effectively reduced gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/510 "2021-12-09T19:12:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However Media coverage of the shootings IS a cause. Canada, for example, does not allow the names of the shooters to be broadcast. That is absolutely false. Please don’t spread misinformation like that which seems to come from gun advocacy sources looking to blame gun violence on anything but guns. For example, the Quebec City mosque shooting names Alexandre Bissonnette: > **[Quebec City mosque shooter sentenced to at least 40 years in prison | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/alexandre-bissonnette-sentence-quebec-city-mosque-shooting-1.4973655)** > > Alexandre Bissonnette, who pleaded guilty to killing six men at a Quebec City mosque two years ago, will be allowed to ask for parole at age 67, a judge decided Friday. Want a picture of him? No problem: > **[Supreme Court to hear appeal of Quebec City mosque shooter’s sentence |...](https://globalnews.ca/news/7897941/supreme-court-quebec-mosque-shooting-appeal/)** > > The high court announced its decision Thursday to allow the appeal brought forth by Quebec's Directeur des poursuites criminelles et pénales. School shooter in La Loche, Saskatchewan? Randan Dakota Fontaine: > **['Don't shoot me': Complete chilling account of La Loche mass shooting now...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/documents-account-la-loche-what-happened-1.5533215)** > > On Jan. 22, 2016, a teen began a shooting spree in the small northern Saskatchewan town of La Loche that left four people dead and seven wounded. The Supreme Court has decided it won't hear the shooter's appeal of his adult sentence, so CBC News can... You are perhaps confused by the fact that in the Saskatchewan case, the shooter could not be named because he was a minor. In Canada all minors must be tried as such and their identity cannot be disclosed, but in egregious cases as in this one they can be sentenced as an adult. That anonymity is lost if sentenced as an adult and after appeals are exhausted, but the protection comes from being a minor and has nothing to do with some fantasy about never publicizing the names or pictures of shooters. Needless to say, Canadian media covers the endless shootings in the US just as thoroughly as US media does. And yet, mass shootings are exceedingly rare in Canada. Gee, I wonder why? 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/511 "2021-12-09T19:55:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I want laws that actually work, laws that have worked and continue to work in places that don’t think 15,000 gun murders a year is normal. Are we going to turn this into yet another gun control debate? OK, give me YOUR specific ideas of good gun control laws. And I don’t give a crap about how other nations do it, give me workable laws will reduce violent crime. And why. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/512 "2021-12-09T19:57:30Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > First hand evidence from @pkbites, who works in law enforcement. One guy, one state, anecdotal. Sure, his experiences are valuable but come on, we never point to a anecdotal post and say that’s a cite. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/513 "2021-12-09T19:58:43Z")
WaPo article, but if I did it right this should be a gift link, so you should be able to read it even if not subscribed: > **[How can schools detect potentially violent students? Researchers have an answer.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/12/09/stopping-school-mass-shootings-oxford-michigan/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWJpZCI6IjM2NDA2NDk3IiwicmVhc29uIjoiZ2lmdCIsIm5iZiI6MTYzOTA3OTY2MCwiaXNzIjoic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucyIsImV4cCI6MTY0MDI4OTI2MCwiaWF0IjoxNjM5MDc5NjYwLCJqdGkiOiI2NTg2YWMyNC0wYjE4LTQ3MGItOGRlOC1lYTJhY2Y1YjEwMDQiLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy53YXNoaW5ndG9ucG9zdC5jb20vZWR1Y2F0aW9uLzIwMjEvMTIvMDkvc3RvcHBpbmctc2Nob29sLW1hc3Mtc2hvb3RpbmdzLW94Zm9yZC1taWNoaWdhbi8ifQ.XOdot6ZnaWkJmeosMoVv3KeQyETYdNrXmwO20AQjT4Q&itid=gfta)** > > Experts say schools’ threat detection systems can head off mass casualty events like the one last week in Oxford, Mich. – The article reads to me not so much that they have a guaranteed answer, but that they have a recommended technique that would be likely to catch more cases. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/514 "2021-12-09T20:00:55Z")
Were any of those school shooting caused by a minor? No. You even stated that > [@wolfpup](#): > > …the shooter could not be named because he was a minor. In Canada all minors must be tried as such and their identity cannot be disclosed,… Of course I wasn’t talking about any generic murders committed by adults, the topic here is school shooting committed by a student, and my cites showed that giving out the name can lead to more shootings. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/515 "2021-12-09T20:03:26Z")
Thank you for that, and it certainly seems like we should be trying it. I see no reason not to. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/516 "2021-12-09T20:07:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > OK, give me YOUR specific ideas of good gun control laws. And I don’t give a crap about how other nations do it, give me workable laws will reduce violent crime. And why. Easy. Repeal the 2nd and ban private gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/517 "2021-12-09T20:12:39Z")
But you’re forgetting how many armed patriots are determined to uphold the Constitution! Except the part of the Constitution that allows you to amend the Constitution, they will shoot you if you try to do that. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/518 "2021-12-09T20:16:04Z")
Personally, I’m in the ban all civilian firearm ownership crowd. It seems Canada is slowly going that way and that makes me quite happy. Our gun violence is quite high, while it pales in comparison to the USA. But let’s assume that’s unworkable. - Mandatory comprehensive background checks on all firearm purchases and transfers. - Permanent ban on firearm ownership for anybody convicted of domestic abuse - Mandatory gun safety features (e.g., biometric locking) for all firearms not stored in a gun safe separate from ammunition - Permanent ban from firearm ownership for violating firearm law regardless of whether it is a felony or not - Mandatory psychiatric evaluation for all members of a household, or any other person that will have ready access to the firearm prior to sale (probably least workable, but would probably help a lot). If they don’t pass, then you don’t get a firearm. - Periodic psychiatric screening would also be helpful but probably even less workable. I can probably think of more but maybe this is a good start. Better mental healthcare would also really helps with suicide in general, but I know the idea of actually giving people healthcare in the USA is considered unworkable for … reasons. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/519 "2021-12-09T20:19:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > ban private gun ownership. Entirely? Most of the continent will be overrun by starving deer. (Sizeable chunks of it are already.) Amend the 2nd to specify that requiring training, licensing, and proper custody of weapons, plus confiscation of weapons for anyone convicted of a violent crime or of violating the licensing requirements, are permissible; possibly even that they’re required; and that weapons can be banned from public property when deemed necessary by its governing authority, and from private property by its owners. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/520 "2021-12-09T20:20:20Z")
ISTM that the fact that he altered these drawings (to make them _appear_ more benign) is at least _some_ evidence of consciousness of guilt, and an awareness that they were inculpatory as they were originally drawn. [think of it as Junior’s equivalent to Mommy’s and Daddy’s flight to evade apprehension] The alterations, IMHO, gave rise _to_ the “video game” tale. > **[Police detail disturbing note, drawing teacher found on desk of suspected...](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/12/03/police-detail-disturbing-note-drawing-teacher-found-on-desk-of-suspected-oxford-high-school-shooter/)** > > A teacher at Oxford High School found a disturbing note and drawing on the desk of Ethan Crumbley hours before he is accused of firing shots that killed four students and injured seven others, police said. > “The counselor obtained the drawing, but Ethan had altered it,” Willis said. “The drawings of the gun and the bloody figure were scratched out, along with the words, ‘Help me,’ and, ‘My life is useless,’ ‘The world is dead,’ and, ‘Blood everywhere.’ They were all scratched out.” ETA: Mom’s advice about ‘learning how not to get caught’ seems to be a consistent theme in this awful story. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/521 "2021-12-09T20:23:22Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Most of the continent will be overrun by starving deer. Well, no - just like the students worked up into a murderous rage by playing video games who can kill their fellow students just as easily with bombs, knives and pencils, we can surely also hunt deer with bombs, knives and pencils. I am assured that there are many equally effective methods to kill things if you are determined to kill them. Guns don’t kill deer, people kill deer. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/522 "2021-12-09T20:25:01Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Entirely? Most of the continent will be overrun by starving deer. (Sizeable chunks of it are already.) That’s stupid. Maybe if we didn’t murder all the wolves they’d eat the deer? 1. ban all hunting of wolves 2. ban guns 3. profit. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/523 "2021-12-09T20:25:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Easy. Repeal the 2nd and ban private gun ownership. We could do what NZ is doing with smoking. Right now the age to buy a gun is 18? Raise that age by 1 year every year forever. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/524 "2021-12-09T20:26:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But you’re forgetting how many armed patriots are determined to uphold the Constitution! The 2nd Amendment is not the reason-It is the excuse. If it were repealed the excuse would be Natural Law and/or God Given Rights. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/525 "2021-12-09T20:34:01Z")
Bombs would waste the meat. Crossbows work, it’s true; but guns may actually be easier on the deer, as more likely to provide a quick kill, I think. (Yes, I know what you’re trying to do there.) > [@Babale](#): > > Maybe if we didn’t murder all the wolves they’d eat the deer? If we hadn’t finished off the wolves and the Cat-of-Many-Names in most of the country, yes, they’d probably take care of it. Since we have, it would take long enough for them to come back that the starving deer would do massive ecological damage before things came back into balance. I also suspect that it would be even harder to get much of the population in relatively settled areas to accept a great enough density of wolf and puma to keep the deer in balance than it would be to get my proposed constitutional amendment through. Even though the 2nd was for the most part interpreted that way until recently. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/526 "2021-12-09T20:35:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I also suspect that it would be even harder to get much of the population in relatively settled areas to accept a great enough density of wolf and puma to keep the deer in balance than it would be to get my proposed constitutional amendment through. Even though the 2nd was for the most part interpreted that way until recently. That may be true, but restoration of ecosystems is going to be a massive part of preventing our planet from falling apart. Not just here in the US but in places like Europe where the issue is much older, too. But that’s a different topic… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/527 "2021-12-09T20:38:43Z")
I asked for workable. 🤨 Nor is that a Law, it requires a totally impossible repeal of a Constitutional amendment, which can not happen given the political climate. And in fact, only a tiny % of Americans favor anything that draconian. Nor would that solve the 300M guns still out there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=27)