# Oxford Shooter's Parents Charged with Involuntary Manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493 "2021-12-04T13:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/548 "2021-12-09T22:31:54Z")
Not if they decide to be law-abiding citizens. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/549 "2021-12-09T22:32:38Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Those are all great ideas, but none of them would require amending the Constitution, and many of them are in fact in place (for example, the standards for issuing gun licenses are IMO appalling lax in many jurisdictions, but all of them do actually require you to have licenses and can at least theoretically confiscate your gun for violating that requirement). Are you talking only about handguns? Because I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/550 "2021-12-09T22:38:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Many of the offenders were legally prohibited from having guns_ I saw that. That’s why I said maybe this is one of those situations where better enforcement is needed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/551 "2021-12-09T22:44:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you ban all guns and there are 70 million gun owners, you have 70 million criminals do you not? Depends on how it was done, really. If the 2nd Amendment was vacated by another Amendment, clearing the way for a federal ban that made it illegal to own a firearm and superseded state laws, then when that was actually implemented, whatever percentage of people chose to continue to keep guns would be breaking the law, yes. Full stop. Just like with other things that were legal in the past but became illegal when laws changed. I seriously doubt it would be 70 million people…or even 1% of that. There certainly would be some that would be breaking the law though, and some would certainly go to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/552 "2021-12-09T22:53:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you ban all guns and there are 70 million gun owners, you have 70 million criminals do you not? You know how they can pass laws against speeding, without putting everyone who gets caught speeding in jail? Pretty sure we could figure out something similar for guns. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/553 "2021-12-09T23:13:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, they don’t work. The states with the most strict gun control laws have violent crime rates about the same as those with the most loose. By “states with the most strict gun control laws”, I assume you mean New South Wales, Queensland, and Western Australia? Because you won’t find any states with strict gun control laws anywhere in the US. Amazingly, all of those places with strict gun control laws, in fact, have violent crime rates far below those places without. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/554 "2021-12-09T23:13:36Z")
So, His step one was repeal, step two was ban. Are there more steps? Asking people to turn in their guns voluntarily? Will those guns be paid for? Then what- door to door confiscation? Warrant less searches? More Ruby Ridge stand offs? Come on, get real. Or lets talk rainbow unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/555 "2021-12-09T23:14:14Z")
I can’t disagree, but that means _larger_ police budgets. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/556 "2021-12-09T23:19:05Z")
Well, here is Giffords, a radical anti-gun org. > **[Giffords Annual Gun Law Scorecard](https://giffords.org/lawcenter/resources/scorecard/)** > > Year after year, the evidence is clear: strong gun laws save lives. Is your state doing enough? Eleven states get a A or a B, so _Giffords_ considers them to have strict or strong gun control laws. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/557 "2021-12-09T23:22:43Z")
I assume you’re trying to say that this means no defund the police? My personal view is that I support the idea behind the defund the police movement because it is very pro-police. Police should be handling fewer types of calls and not be treated like the garbagemen for human suffering. This is too much of an attitude that anything dealing with people that we kind of don’t want to deal with we just say “let the police do it!” For example, mental health checks. You should not send an armed enforcer of the law for a call that does not require it, e.g., no expectation of violence. Because a police officer will react like an armed enforcer of the law. That’s what they do. And you end up with a police officer dragging a suicidal girl by the hair down a hallway and slamming her face into the ground. Just, you know, for example. But for a call where there is the possibility of violence, then yes, send the police. And yes, give the police to appropriate funding to handle such calls. Whether it is more or less depending on more laws, less calls, I don’t know. But give them the appropriate funding. Also, stop militarizing the police. But now we’re into a tangent of a tangent of a tangent? It is tangents all the way down. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/558 "2021-12-09T23:24:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By “states with the most strict gun control laws”, I assume you mean New South Wales, Queensland, and Western Australia? Because you won’t find any states with strict gun control laws anywhere in the US. No states in the US have strict gun control laws? Anyway, yes, that’s true…and in 1996-1997 Australia had a ground-breaking by back program…and were able to buy back staggering 600-700k guns! A similar program in the US would need to be 2-3 orders of magnitude more to even start to have a similar effect, assuming it would. Looking at Australia’s violent crime rate, it was never really that high compared to the US, either before or after the ban. Certainly, it’s dropped quite a bit since 2005…from around 2.0 per 100k to around 1.0 per 100k. Over that same period, the US’s violent crime rate has also dropped…from 7.32 per 100k to 4.96 (these stats are from 1995-2015 btw). ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/559 "2021-12-09T23:25:43Z")
And your cite does indeed show that these strong gun laws are correlated with a decrease in gun deaths. I was honestly shocked to find that despite the ongoing carnage in some parts of Chicago, Illinoisians are actually less likely than the average American to die of a lead overdose. But IIRC this is where you explain that only violent crime rates should be considered, and gun suicides and accidents don’t “really” count as things we should be concerned about preventing for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/560 "2021-12-09T23:26:23Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I assume you’re trying to say that this means no defund the police? > > My personal view is that I support the idea behind the defund the police movement because it is very pro-police. Police should be handling fewer types of calls and not be treated like the garbagemen for human suffering. This is too much of an attitude that anything dealing with people that we kind of don’t want to deal with we just say “let the police do it!” I support the ACLU " **Divest and reinvest"**. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not if they decide to be law-abiding citizens. If the government repeals the 1st and bans being an atheist, will you be a “law-abiding citizen.” ? Or will you say your rights have been violated? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/561 "2021-12-09T23:27:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If the government repeals the 1st and bans being an atheist, will you be a “law-abiding citizen.” ? Or will you say your rights have been violated? This is the root of the problem. So long as Americans are convinced that personally owning a murderstick is a human right on par with freedom of religion, Americans will keep blowing each other (and their children) away, year after bloody year. Period, and of story. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/562 "2021-12-09T23:27:53Z")
I’m not familiar with that. But sounds about right. Googled it quick (I’m in a meeting). I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/563 "2021-12-09T23:28:28Z")
Read something interesting on that subject just the other day > **[Wolves create a “landscape of fear,” slowing deer-car collisions](https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/wolves-create-a-landscape-of-fear-slowing-deer-car-collisions/)** > > Wolves scare deer away from highways, a marked economic and ecological benefit. > In all, the researchers found a 24 percent reduction in deer-automobile collisions as a result of wolf colonization. Three-quarters of this benefit comes from wolves creating what the paper calls a “landscape of fear” and scaring the deer away from roads. The remaining quarter is due to wolves eating enough deer to lower their numbers. The team based its calculations on deer population data in the counties. > > Of course, wolves have a negative economic impact, as well—they kill livestock, for instance. But regions with the predators largely came out ahead. The paper notes that there’s an $11 million benefit from collision reductions. According to Parker, this sum is 63 times the cost of the wolves killing livestock. > > According to Raynor, ungulates like elk and deer will change their behavior to avoid being eaten when predators are around. Further, wolves often use roads as corridors to move around these regions quickly. As such, the deer tend to steer clear of the areas and thus avoid death by automobile. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/564 "2021-12-09T23:29:01Z")
I must admit when I made this thread I never expected it to get into wolves and deer. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/565 "2021-12-09T23:29:44Z")
Next up : lions, and tigers, and bears… ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/566 "2021-12-09T23:29:57Z")
Oh my! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/567 "2021-12-09T23:31:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If the government repeals the 1st and bans being an atheist, will you be a “law-abiding citizen.” ? Or will you say your rights have been violated? It’s kind of amazing how many levels this analogy doesn’t work on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=29)