# Oxford Shooter's Parents Charged with Involuntary Manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493 "2021-12-04T13:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/65 "2021-12-04T17:39:55Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Most of those parents have well-adjusted children, and in addition take gun safety seriously. And you know this because…? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/66 "2021-12-04T17:43:50Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Assigning blame isn’t necessarily zero-sum algebra. I don’t know why it has to add up to 100%. I see no problem with assigning the parents 98% of the blame and assigning the school 65% Please check my post #58. You should have a problem blaming the school for that high percentage. Speaking of things not happening in a vacuum, one should not forget that in the last elections there were a lot of parents like the ones pointed at in the OP that fought to get school administrations to give parents more control over what schools teach and are allowed to do. That the requests for more control were based on news from lalaland was not seen a problem by parents like those. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/67 "2021-12-04T17:49:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please check my post #58. You should have a problem blaming the school for that high percentage.   Oops. #58 was _my_ post. Anyway, whatever. My percentages were admittedly semi-arbitrary guesses, for example. You could assign the school less, if you feel that searching the kid’s pack wasn’t an option. But if the parents refused to consent, they should certainly have removed kid, parents, and pack alike from the premises. Or even called the SRO to join the conversation. The main point of my post is that the percentages of assigned guilt can add up to more than 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/68 "2021-12-04T17:50:39Z")
The “other side” isn’t spinning anything that I’ve seen. Some of the staunchest conservatives I know shared the B.O.L.O for the parents on Facebook. They are pretty near universally reviled. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/69 "2021-12-04T17:51:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Crane](#): > > > > Just move along, nothing to see here. > > Did they react that way? Or did they call the parents and ask him to pick him up, but they refused? > > I’m genuinely asking, reporting on this story has been a bit mixed To the best of my understanding, the parents were called to the school to meet with school officials and the kid over concerns about the drawing, and searching on his phone for ammunition. The school was sufficiently concerned that they required the parents to take the kid for counseling within 48 hours, which in effect meant “immediately”. What is hard to fathom is that after the meeting, the kid was let back into class. This is where the school _may_ share some portion of the blame if these facts are correct. There seems to have been enough disturbing evidence to suspend the kid at least until the school could get an assessment from the psychological counseling that they quite properly and urgently required for him. This is assuming the school officials knew nothing about the gun. If they did know, then they really seriously dropped the ball. And, arguably, they could have found out if their concern had extended to checking his social media, where allegedly he was bragging about it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/70 "2021-12-04T17:55:47Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Oops. #58 was _my_ post. Nope, yours was #62 > [@Senegoid](#): > > Anyway, whatever. My percentages were admittedly semi-arbitrary guesses, for example. You could assign the school less, if you feel that searching the kid’s pack wasn’t an option. But if the parents refused to consent, they should certainly have removed kid, parents, and pack alike from the premises. Or even called the SRO to join the conversation. What part of “there was no signed agreement about opening backpacks” are you missing here? Of course one has to check if that was already a signed agreement beforehand in that particularly school in the OP as it was not in the charter one where I once worked for the admin. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/71 "2021-12-04T17:58:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, yours was #62 Ah, so. Like I said, it ain’t strict algebra here. 🙂 Don’t most schools now have signs posted at every entrance saying, in effect, “Abandon all rights, ye who enter here!” ? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/72 "2021-12-04T18:00:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There seems to have been enough disturbing evidence to suspend the kid at least until the school could get an assessment from the psychological counseling Agreed, that’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/73 "2021-12-04T18:07:59Z")
I have to imagine that the subject of handguns came up during the school meeting. He had drawn a picture of one, and had been searching for ammunition. It would have been odd if the administrator didn’t at least ask “does he have access to a gun at home?” The parents were very pro 2nd amendment, so I can imagine that they affirmed owning weapons. If I’m right, do you think that they would have been hostile to the questioning? Do you think there was any discussion of whether the guns were secured? Regardless, I don’t expect that either there parents or the school would have automatically made the leap to think that he had one in his backpack. Although maybe that’s naive on my part. > [@wolfpup](#): > > What is hard to fathom is that after the meeting, the kid was let back into class. I heard that after the meeting he went into a bathroom, then came out shooting. It’s not clear to me that he was ever just sent back to class. Although I guess that doesn’t negate your point - he wasn’t put into some isolated room, but still given freedom to move about the school. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/74 "2021-12-04T18:09:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > If all those things are true then those parents aren’t only culpable but also insane, if not downright evil. That mom definitely sounds like she has a couple of screws loose. > > I agree. But nothing she did seems particularly put of line with the general Pro Gun stance. Barbaric and insane as it seems to me, there are TONS of parents who buy firearms for their children. It is illegal to give a minor a handgun. No law abiding gun owner would do this. It is perfectly legal to have a minor take hunters/gun safety with a long gun and have a rifle/shotgun that they have access to as allowed under the law. Nothing these parents did appears to be legal or anything responsible parents and gun owners would do. Please don’t lump everyone into the same group to advance your political and philosophical agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/75 "2021-12-04T18:10:07Z")
Do even the most ardent second-amendment supporters think it’s cool for schoolchildren to have guns in school? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/76 "2021-12-04T18:10:26Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Ah, so. Like I said, it ain’t strict algebra here. 🙂 Well, as a substitute I had to teach once with that weapon of math destruction known as “Al-gebra” 🤪 > [@Senegoid](#): > > Don’t most schools now have signs posted at every entrance saying, in effect, “Abandon all rights, ye who enter here!” ? As I can only talk about what I experience in a charter school in Arizona, the answer is that yes, but only with the items put in writing and signed by both parent and student. Inspecting inside backpacks was not in the contract. (There are many high school students that do flip from good to bad as soon they reach 18 before they graduate, they figure that the rules are not for them as they are adults now, they learn quickly that as an adult signing a contract they find that that signature is also a very adult thing that comes with responsibilities.) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/77 "2021-12-04T18:11:42Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Also, it appears they’ve hired an attorney for themselves, but left their son to the public defender. > > Not sure these guys are going to be in the running for Parents of the Year. The whole thing reads almost as if they were trying to deliberately set him up to do what he did. From the article posted (and I’ve seen the info elsewhere): > Both parents were called to Oxford High School hours before the Tuesday shooting and shown a classroom drawing by their son of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words “The thoughts won’t stop, help me,” and a bullet with the words, “Blood everywhere.” > > There was also depicted a person who appeared to have been shot twice and bleeding, McDonald said, and the words, “My life is useless” and “The world is dead.” Who looks at a drawing like that made by their teenager, knows the child has access to a gun, and just leaves him in school and goes back home without checking where the gun is? This is way beyond just forgetting to lock a gun up. It’s even way beyond deliberately keeping a loaded one rapidly accessible to the parents with the side effect that it’s also accessible to a child. “The thoughts won’t stop, help me.” Who gets a plea like that and responds by handing the person a gun? (Yes, I know they didn’t hand it to him right in response to that note. But they clearly didn’t look at it and say immediately ‘wait a minute, where’s the gun we just gave you?’) > [@Babale](#): > > Barbaric and insane as it seems to me, there are TONS of parents who buy firearms for their children. True. Many of them around here are teaching their children to hunt; which they can legally do in NY, under adult supervision, in some cases as young as 12. I don’t find that either barbaric or insane. I also don’t think it’s remotely equivalent to handing a gun to a child who’s saying “The thoughts won’t stop, help me.” > [@GIGObuster](#): > > > [@Senegoid](#): > > > > Oops. #58 was _my_ post. > > Nope, yours was #62 The post number according to the sidebar may differ from the post number that becomes visible if you click on the posting time at the top of the post. Some threads have had posts removed. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/78 "2021-12-04T18:12:23Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Assigning blame isn’t necessarily zero-sum algebra. I don’t know why it has to add up to 100%. I see no problem with assigning the parents 98% of the blame and assigning the school 65%, while also assigning the kiddo himself a solid 80% of the blame. (Allowing, perhaps, that the kiddo may not be 100% blame if he’s seriously fucked up from his home environment. Or maybe he was just teased too much because his name is Crumbley?) Yeah, I don’t know where this notion is coming from that you have to blame either one or the other - that if you point a finger at the school, you’re somehow absolving the parents. To me it’s clear that both fucked up. The parents certainly deserve a lion’s share of the blame for buying their obviously troubled kid a gun, and then ignoring or even making light of the warning signs that he may have been up to something nefarious. But school administrators never should have sent the kid back to class. One could argue that it was only a drawing, but the school apparently felt worried enough about it to call the parents in and suggest that they take their son home. If the parents were refusing, then school administrators should have put their foot down, said they didn’t feel safe having him there until he got checked out, and that if he insisted on coming back to school before that, he would be treated as a trespasser and the police would be called. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/79 "2021-12-04T18:12:49Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Do even the most ardent second-amendment supporters think it’s cool for schoolchildren to have guns in school? No, but I’m not sure if the parents knew that he had it in his possession. They were clearly wrong, but they may have assumed that he didn’t take it out of their room. The dad’s 911 call, if sincere, would seem to suggest that they had no inkling that he had it with him. I realize that much of the discussion is about whether they should have known, but I doubt they had actual knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/80 "2021-12-04T18:14:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Do even the most ardent second-amendment supporters think it’s cool for schoolchildren to have guns in school? We have been told that guns are not provocative or intimidating. No one should be concerned by their presence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/81 "2021-12-04T18:16:48Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The post number according to the sidebar may differ from the post number that becomes visible if you click on the posting time at the top of the post. Some threads have had posts removed. And that is why I clicked on the time (or date) of the post, it gives the user the correct post number and a link to the post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/82 "2021-12-04T18:16:54Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > The parents were very pro 2nd amendment, so I can imagine that they affirmed owning weapons. Didn’t they run away to hide in a closed art gallery? _I_ can imagine they would have no trouble lying to those librul school Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/83 "2021-12-04T18:17:25Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > The dad’s 911 call, if sincere, would seem to suggest that they had no inkling that he had it with him. But there was also the mother’s text after the news of the shooting broke (yeah, a little too late): “Ethan, don’t do it!” – I think there’s a bit of inkling there. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493/84 "2021-12-04T18:22:04Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The post number according to the sidebar may differ from the post number that becomes visible if you click on the posting time at the top of the post. No, @GIGObuster was right about the post numbering. I got my accounting a bit scrambled there. Maybe there’s a contractual difference between charter (private?) schools and public schools. Certainly, public schools in California all have signs at every parking lot entrance saying that anyone who enters consents to a search of their vehicles for any reason or no reason. [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/627/20881386871_cabf526b95_b.jpg "Vehicle Search on School Premises Sign") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/buddhadog/20881386871) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-shooters-parents-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter/955493.md?page=5)