# Oxford University gave students 15 extra minutes to take exams. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284 "2018-01-23T08:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/1 "2018-01-23T08:50:52Z")
In Maths and Computers. Hoping to increase female scores.:smack::rolleyes: [https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/01/22/oxford-university-gives-women-time-pass-exams/amp/](https://www.google.com/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/01/22/oxford-university-gives-women-time-pass-exams/amp/) ---
**Author:** ![BobBitchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@BobBitchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobBitchin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/2 "2018-01-23T09:04:27Z")
I wonder if any of the students that were given extra time refused it. If they did or didn’t, what does that say, and about who? Did they include students who self identify as female? There are so many ways this could go depending on which thread you pull. Nice find:cool: ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/3 "2018-01-23T09:08:57Z")
Your link says STUDENTS were given 15 minutes longer - not females only. Where does it say the females received more time than males? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/4 "2018-01-23T09:09:08Z")
What the article says is that everyone got 15 extra minutes and that the aim of giving everyone 15 extra minutes was to help female scores since they might be more susceptible to stress stemming from the time limit. The way you phrased it makes it sound like only women got the extra 15 minutes. Unequal result is not per se evidence of discrimination but it is a good red flag that there might be, even if it’s unintentional and looks impartial on its face. They’re trying different things to see how it might affect results. In this case, if the time limit were representative of something important, it might indeed be unwise to give extra time but in a physics and math exam, that doesn’t seem to be so. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/5 "2018-01-23T09:33:38Z")
Yes. The title needs to be amended, as that is misleading. Still think it’s a stupid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/6 "2018-01-23T09:33:48Z")
Didn’t read the story, but from the comments, we might speculate: If the male students tend to finish the exam in the basic time allowed, but a lot of female students tend to not finish the exam, then extending the time by 15 minutes would tend to improve female students’ scores, while not affecting male students’ scores. Does the article suggest this is happening? In general, I’d be all in favor of allowing enough time for _everyone_ to finish the exam – in effect, allowing all students to have unlimited time. Tests ought to just measure the students’ knowledge of the subject and not be speed contests. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/7 "2018-01-23T13:32:30Z")
Everybody got more time- what’s the problem? Is math any less valid if it took longer to get to the answer? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/8 "2018-01-23T14:29:45Z")
Seems like a simple experiment. If the exam is 2 hours you’ve increased it by 12.5%. Record the scores, review against earlier similar exams and see if there is an actual effect. There’s a lot of possible outcomes though. No impact on males/No impact on females No impact on males/Negative impact on females No impact on males/Positive impact on females Negative impact on males/no impact on females Negative impact on males/negative impact on females Negative impact on males/positive impact on females Positive impact on males/no impact on females Positive impact on males/negative impact on females Positive impact on males/positive impact on females ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/9 "2018-01-23T14:41:31Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > What the article says is that everyone got 15 extra minutes and that the aim of giving everyone 15 extra minutes was to help female scores since they might be more susceptible to stress stemming from the time limit. Right. From the article: > [@](#): > > Students taking maths and computer science examinations in the summer of 2017 were given an extra 15 minutes to complete their papers, after dons ruled that "female candidates might be more likely to be adversely affected by time pressure. So now I’m really curious as to whether there’s any evidence anywhere that females are more adversely affected by time pressure than males, and if so, why. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Unequal result is not per se evidence of discrimination but it is a good red flag that there might be, even if it’s unintentional and looks impartial on its face. They’re trying different things to see how it might affect results. In this case, if the time limit were representative of something important, it might indeed be unwise to give extra time but in a physics and math exam, that doesn’t seem to be so. I’m inclined to agree, but would be interested in hearing opposing arguments (if there are any). ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/10 "2018-01-23T14:42:48Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > In general, I’d be all in favor of allowing enough time for _everyone_ to finish the exam – in effect, allowing all students to have unlimited time. Tests ought to just measure the students’ knowledge of the subject and not be speed contests. That’s a good idea. I wonder why that’s not done more often. Maybe not unlimited time, but enough time for students to not have to rush through the questions. I’m sure there are students which do poorly on tests because they feel rushed, but would do excellent when working on the same problems in the real world. Perhaps the exam time could be longer, but there would be extra credit for completing the test sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/11 "2018-01-23T14:47:22Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Everybody got more time- what’s the problem? Is math any less valid if it took longer to get to the answer? Probably not, but to play devil’s advocate: What if the reason it took longer to get the answer was that the only way the person knew how to do it was by a laborious, mindless, time-consuming method that didn’t demonstrate much understanding or insight? What if I were testing people’s ability to add, and I asked them to add 124 + 58, and they did it by drawing 124 dots on a piece of paper, and then drawing 58 more, and then counting all the dots? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/12 "2018-01-23T15:05:01Z")
> [@BobBitchin](#): > > I wonder if any of the students that were given extra time refused it. It’s called “handing in your exam papers early”. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/13 "2018-01-23T15:29:29Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Everybody got more time- what’s the problem? Is math any less valid if it took longer to get to the answer? If the instructor is grading on a curve, and some people aren’t finishing by the end of the allotted period, then part of what’s being tested (whether intentionally or not) is the ability to work quickly. ISTM that the time required to work a problem ought to matter. Afterall, your future employers want to know that you won’t take all day to get through a relatively simple analysis; if that’s not reflected in your grades, then your grades aren’t telling them what they need to know about you as a job candidate. It might be more useful to go in the opposite direction. Make the test so long that _nobody_ can get through it in the allotted time period. Now we’re definitely testing everyone on knowledge _and_ timeliness. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/14 "2018-01-23T15:49:13Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > That’s a good idea. I wonder why that’s not done more often. Maybe not unlimited time, but enough time for students to not have to rush through the questions. I’m sure there are students which do poorly on tests because they feel rushed, but would do excellent when working on the same problems in the real world. Perhaps the exam time could be longer, but there would be extra credit for completing the test sooner. Giving extra credit for finishing early basically undoes the whole point. The reasons for time limits are 1) practicality and 2) it’s a great way to make usre you get a nice bell curve. But I think it’s artificial and I’m not a fan in most cases. > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > If the instructor is grading on a curve, and some people aren’t finishing by the end of the allotted period, then part of what’s being tested (whether intentionally or not) is the ability to work quickly. > > ISTM that the time required to work a problem ought to matter. Afterall, your future employers want to know that you won’t take all day to get through a relatively simple analysis; if that’s not reflected in your grades, then your grades aren’t telling them what they need to know about you as a job candidate. > > It might be more useful to go in the opposite direction. Make the test so long that _nobody_ can get through it in the allotted time period. Now we’re definitely testing everyone on knowledge _and_ timeliness. Sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn’t. If you test can’t discriminate between “know, but need more time” and “don’t know at all”, you are losing an important piece of information. In my experience, time pressure is often used to force a great distribution in cases where it isn’t really relevant. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/15 "2018-01-23T15:58:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Probably not, but to play devil’s advocate: What if the reason it took longer to get the answer was that the only way the person knew how to do it was by a laborious, mindless, time-consuming method that didn’t demonstrate much understanding or insight? What if I were testing people’s ability to add, and I asked them to add 124 + 58, and they did it by drawing 124 dots on a piece of paper, and then drawing 58 more, and then counting all the dots? If the test scorers think it matters, they will ask people to show their work. Those who derive answers through more elegant means can receive more points than those who don’t show the same level of insight. Sort of an aside, but it does support my point, the “show your work in order to receive full credit” requirement used to trip my son up in the early grades all the time. Asked a math question, he found the answer intuitively obvious. For him, there was no work to show- the answer just WAS. Only as he moved into higher grades and had to solve more complex problems did he finally accept that he was expected not only to give an answer, but to demonstrate his understanding of the methodology that helped him to reach it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/16 "2018-01-23T16:04:42Z")
In general, there are two kinds of skills that are both extremely valuable: 1. Being able to see right away what needs to be done and to do it quickly, perhaps because you have plenty of experience with that kind of thing and have done it before. Part of being good at just about anything is getting to the point where certain parts are automatic and you don’t have to stop and think about them. 2. Being able to figure out what needs to be done and to do it, in situations where you don’t know right away what to do, perhaps because you’ve never faced that kind of problem or situation before. Timed tests are better at testing the first. Big important rule of test designing: know what you want to be testing. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/17 "2018-01-23T16:06:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Probably not, but to play devil’s advocate: What if the reason it took longer to get the answer was that the only way the person knew how to do it was by a laborious, mindless, time-consuming method that didn’t demonstrate much understanding or insight? What if I were testing people’s ability to add, and I asked them to add 124 + 58, and they did it by drawing 124 dots on a piece of paper, and then drawing 58 more, and then counting all the dots? Then you should require showing your work and grading on that. Giving people less time on exams is an efficient way of testing whether some subset of the student have “exam-taking skills” in addition to subject matter skill. Let’s say a group of students have the same skill on the subject matter as determined by how well they’d do if they only tried once on each single problem. Then a time limit might give the following ranking. The top students in the group would be the ones who just tried once on each problem and wrote down whatever they got. Overlapping that group, but probably not passing them, would be the ones who looked over all the problems and determined approximately who rushed they would be, and which problems would be worth putting some extra effort into. They’d have less time, might be rushed, but they could potentially get more credit for solving some of the harder problems. The bottom group would be those who checked their answers, tried again on problems they got wrong, and ran out of time before they could complete them all. Test taking is a skill. It’s not a skill that is directly transferable to managing your time in a professional setting with dead lines. For instance I’d rather not drive over bridges created by people trained to skip quality control when up against a deadline. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/18 "2018-01-23T16:59:18Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Probably not, but to play devil’s advocate: What if the reason it took longer to get the answer was that the only way the person knew how to do it was by a laborious, mindless, time-consuming method that didn’t demonstrate much understanding or insight? What if I were testing people’s ability to add, and I asked them to add 124 + 58, and they did it by drawing 124 dots on a piece of paper, and then drawing 58 more, and then counting all the dots? It is also possible that what happens is that some people are more careful, but do not finish the test - losing more points than if they’d been quicker and sloppier. Especially if you are granting partial points for trying, but no points at all for a question you don’t get to. And its also possible that breaks down on gender lines. In college I had an Econ professor who was running his own informal study - it was multiple choice tests. He would mark the time that the test was turned in and correlate the scores with the amount of time it took. There was a high correlation between people who took most of the two hours and high scores. When you actually have to work through problems, like you do in a Math class (or in this case Maths class) being careful can leave you significantly short on time. There is also the ADHD issue. Males are much more likely to be diagnosed and medicated for ADHD, females are just as likely to have it. But without the medication, they don’t get the crutch for focus. Extra time does help both diagnosed and diagnosed ADHD. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/19 "2018-01-23T17:03:44Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > If the test scorers think it matters, they will ask people to show their work. Those who derive answers through more elegant means can receive more points than those who don’t show the same level of insight. > > Sort of an aside, but it does support my point, the “show your work in order to receive full credit” requirement used to trip my son up in the early grades all the time. Asked a math question, he found the answer intuitively obvious. For him, there was no work to show- the answer just WAS. Only as he moved into higher grades and had to solve more complex problems did he finally accept that he was expected not only to give an answer, but to demonstrate his understanding of the methodology that helped him to reach it. What drove me nuts is that in the lower grades my kids were encouraged to do mental math. They weren’t SUPPOSED to show their work. Then sometime in middle school the rules changed and now showing your work was all important - even if you got the right answer, not showing your work would knock you down points. And when we explained this to their high school teachers, the high school teachers were stunned that this was why they had a new generation of kids who never showed their work - and didn’t know how to even think problems through that way. They didn’t know what was being taught to the kids before they got them. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284/20 "2018-01-23T17:06:03Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > It is also possible that what happens is that some people are more careful, but do not finish the test - losing more points than if they’d been quicker and sloppier. Especially if you are granting partial points for trying, but no points at all for a question you don’t get to. And its also possible that breaks down on gender lines. > > In college I had an Econ professor who was running his own informal study - it was multiple choice tests. He would mark the time that the test was turned in and correlate the scores with the amount of time it took. There was a high correlation between people who took most of the two hours and high scores. When you actually have to work through problems, like you do in a Math class (or in this case Maths class) being careful can leave you significantly short on time. > > There is also the ADHD issue. Males are much more likely to be diagnosed and medicated for ADHD, females are just as likely to have it. But without the medication, they don’t get the crutch for focus. Extra time does help both diagnosed and diagnosed ADHD. You raise some interesting and valid points, including about the gender issue. Thanks. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxford-university-gave-students-15-extra-minutes-to-take-exams/807284.md?page=2)