# Oxygen Not Included: The Kerbal Space Program of base building & what Fallout Shelter should've been **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 22, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582 "2018-06-22T17:16:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/601 "2019-09-14T04:10:43Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Nice! That should be more than enough for a starter rocket and silo. You’ll need a few thousand for the rocket (2000 for the basic steam engine is the big one), and then maybe 1500 for the silo roof (at least 2 bunker doors, plus some surrounding bits). > > It sounds like you’re going for a more “luxurious” space area than I usually go for–my dupes stay in their suits when they’re up there. But I should really consider making it more comfortable up there. Like you, I enjoy roleplaying to some degree. The \ is up there so it seems like it is the logical place to build a permanent modern base. I did some math on my two natural gas geysers and figured out how many reservoirs I need to hold all the natural gas they release during their active period. It is a lot more than I would have thought. My intention was to build enough reservoirs to hold it all, but I ended up building about half the required amount. I then upped the priority for burning natural gas on my smart batteries so I burn some while it is being produced. It works out fairly well, I had some wasted gas last cycle so I’ve build a few more reservoirs and I should be able to capture every erg of energy from the geysers. I’ve done the same for my hydrogen geyser. Oh how I wish I had another hydrogen geyser, but unless it is tucked away somewhere it seems like I do not. ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/602 "2019-09-14T04:52:14Z")
I completely screwed up my sleep schedule in the last week by getting back into ONI. Almost 700 hours in the game since just before early access. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/603 "2019-09-14T13:13:36Z")
> [@neutro](#): > > I completely screwed up my sleep schedule in the last week by getting back into ONI. Almost 700 hours in the game since just before early access. Its originality and open-ended problem solving really is like Kerbal Space Program. I had an idea to do Fallout Shelter in a more complex form using basic chemistry and biology but it’s pointless to attempt it now that it’s been done so superbly. Oh well, there’s always networked electronic warfare FPS/RTS to try. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/604 "2019-09-14T14:01:46Z")
The only think I don’t like in ONI is the difficulty in the mid (late?) game in tracking everything that needs to be tracked. You simply do not get good information on when something is becoming a problem. Rather you’re told when something is at critical levels (and sometimes not even that). For example, the game won’t warn you that your food isn’t growing because of heat without you going to your farms and checking. But it will very gladly inform you when you’re dupes are about to starve to death. Similarly, algae levels for diffusers. Heat levels. Etc. It is a great game, but from a UX perspective later on I find it becomes increasingly frustrating to play. Or maybe I’m just bad at the game. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/605 "2019-09-14T14:32:04Z")
When I finally launch this spaceship, I’m definitely play this song. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TBcXXfzrqco/maxresdefault.jpg "Star Trek: Enterprise theme song") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBcXXfzrqco) ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/606 "2019-09-14T21:24:10Z")
I built a steam turbine/aquatuner cooler. Holy Jebus, it took me forever to get it at least somewhat properly working, but I eventually got a version working. That thing is amazing. Everything around it is so very very cold. The ship assembly area is almost complete. A couple more gantries to go. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/607 "2019-09-15T02:34:44Z")
The rocket is built! Now, I need only to fuel her! I’ve already done have the prep work for generating the steam. I piped 15 tonnes of boiling oil to the surface. Yes, overkill for certain, but whatever. Currently the pool is surrounded by insulated tile. Above the oil pool is a pool for water. I just need replace the insulated tile with metal/obsidian, and then fill the pool. Boom! Steam. Vent that into the ship and to the stars! ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/608 "2019-09-15T15:43:14Z")
Dum de dum. Like 100 cycles later (granted I had some other critical issues to chase down during this time), I still have not managed to fuel my rocket. But I _FINALLY_ have it actually working. Steam is flying into the engine. We should have lift off shortly! ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/609 "2019-09-15T17:23:46Z")
Rocket launched and returned safely. But I didn’t seem to get my research points. Strange. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/610 "2019-09-15T18:51:08Z")
Did they change the way sandbox mode works with the launch version? I notice in many videos, people are able to do things in sandbox mode I’m not able to do. For example, in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY5fb1Z--es), the girl can just click to turn off a switch without waiting for a dupe to come along and do it. Also I’ve noticed people are able to click and drag objects/critters/dupes to move them. Is there still a way to do all these things and I’m just not aware of it? I’d like to try out builds in sandbox mode, but it’s still kind of cumbersome because you need to have a dupe come along and do all the loading/unloading/operating. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/611 "2019-09-15T19:46:56Z")
No - what you’re seeing is the debug mode, which has even more cheats than sandbox. However, if you want a switch that you can toggle, instead of waiting for a dupe, use a hydrosensor - you can just toggle the above/below setting. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/612 "2019-09-15T22:23:48Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > Rocket launched and returned safely. But I didn’t seem to get my research points. Strange. You have to install research modules–you’ll get 50 “data bank” resources for each one from a completed mission to a new area (plus I think an extra 50 just for visiting). Each destination has 5 areas to unlock, and the basic steam rocket can get to the 10k destinations with 5 modules. That should allow you to unlock solid boosters and the cargo module. You can visit the 20k destinations by adding a booster or by reducing the number of modules (you’ll have to make more visits to unlock everything then). ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/613 "2019-09-15T22:34:33Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > You have to install research modules–you’ll get 50 “data bank” resources for each one from a completed mission to a new area (plus I think an extra 50 just for visiting). Each destination has 5 areas to unlock, and the basic steam rocket can get to the 10k destinations with 5 modules. That should allow you to unlock solid boosters and the cargo module. You can visit the 20k destinations by adding a booster or by reducing the number of modules (you’ll have to make more visits to unlock everything then). I actually did get the data, I just didn’t see it. I didn’t make another post because I had already posted a lot in a row. 😉 I’m now sending out my fourth mission which should get the solid cargo tech. Then I’ll get the better engines since the nearby asteroids contain little of interest (well, diamonds would be nice). With the ability to build coolers most of my base is now a pretty hue of green. There’s a few hot spots left (glass forge, a volcano, steam vents, etc.) I just built a cooler near the glass forge so that will take care of that. The steam vents of course I want to remain nice and hot for my steam turbines. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/614 "2019-09-15T22:34:44Z")
[Cycle 600 on Oassise](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/771727728507174460/B8CF132F74AE3DB0E1ED68EFD5F6FAA4F78977E3/) Things are close to a normal base at this point. I wouldn’t be depending on ice biomes by this point anyway, and my cooling systems are pretty effective. I’ve got rockets launching pretty regularly now, with the next step requiring liquid oxygen. But I’ve got supercoolant so that shouldn’t be an issue. Power isn’t really a problem either, with a nat gas geyser and 3 hydrogen geysers. Have lots of storage for both, which turned out to be crucial since all four turned off at once! Luckily, I prepare for the worst… The dupes are still surviving on fairly nasty food. I should add some peppernut production at the least. Sleet wheat will have to wait–since there are no ice biomes, I have to go on missions to harvest seeds. So that means researching biological sample modules and going on some missions that are farther out that I can do right now. Also have to build the farm, which is not trivial due to the narrow temperature range. I added one more dupe, for a total of five. I like to keep things small, but I needed one more to be the astronaut. I waited a while before getting one with the right set of characteristics (wanted bonuses on supply and research, since I need both skill chains for the astronaut). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/615 "2019-09-15T22:39:50Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I actually did get the data, I just didn’t see it. I didn’t make another post because I had already posted a lot in a row. 😉 Good to hear. Yeah, the data banks can hide behind other cruft or get buried or whatever. Your call what to search next, but I’d recommend getting solid boosters at least; otherwise it’s going to be annoying to do further research once you visit all the close planets. You can always glean a few more points from places you’ve visited, but it’ll be 10 pts per module instead of 50. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/616 "2019-09-15T23:03:20Z")
I’m an idiot. My oil pump was surrounded by steam, which condensed into water. So I had a liquid filter to separate the oil from the water. The water was vented to space. I literally just realized I could send that water back into the oil pump to make new oil! ARGH!!! So many tonnes of water wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/617 "2019-09-16T05:04:22Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I did a bit of experimentation in sandbox mode–and I’ve been overbuilding my cooling setups. > > Two unnecessary bits: the tempshift plates and the petroleum bath. The tempshift plates spread the heat out a bit, but really there’s not much point to them. As for the petroleum bath, “common knowledge” was that gases aren’t sufficient cooling for aquatuners, but it turns out that high pressure steam is just fine. It has the same heat capacity as water and a decent thermal conductivity. The aquatuner stays just a degree or two hotter than the steam. > > I did run into one curiosity. I tried making my steambox smaller, to 5x2 tiles. This meant the aquatuner was right under the turbine inputs. It worked fine, in the sense that the aquatuner ran at full speed. But somehow the steam never got very hot and the turbine never went full blast. At the same time, the aquatuner was going full blast, so it was constantly taking 900-1000 W, even though it should have been more like 100 W net. > > Somehow, the geometry caused it to permanently delete heat, without even going generating power. I suppose this is good for cooling purposes, but it kinda sucked because it turned into such a power hog. > > So, I think I’ll stick with a 5x3 setup, even though it doesn’t seem like it should be necessary. > > One other finding–pumping down to vacuum is in fact a good idea. Sufficiently large traces of O2 do interfere with the turbine. So the gas pump is necessary; fortunately, it’s also cheap. So you just stick your aquatuner in a small amount of water? If one does use something else, any reason to use petroleum as opposed to crude oil? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/618 "2019-09-16T05:28:24Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > So you just stick your aquatuner in a small amount of water? Yep–I do now. When it’s running, it’s almost entirely steam, except for the few drops that haven’t evaporated yet as they comes from the turbine. The aquatuner stays within a few degrees of the steam, so it has good thermal contact. I try to arrange it so that I have around 10-20 kg of steam once vaporized. Since I put it in a 5x3 chamber, that means I go for around 50 kg water per tile initially. I used to put petroleum in there first as a heatspreader, but it isn’t necessary. I tend to go for petroleum over crude by default since the properties are better all around (better temperature range and heat capacity), but it’s a minor difference so it doesn’t matter much. One thing of note–don’t run petroleum/crude \*through \*your aquatuner if you can help it. The aquatuner takes 1200 W when it’s running, and always cools the fluid by 14 C. Which means that you’re getting much better cooling efficiency with high heat capacity fluids. Supercoolant is the best; water is the second best, but it’s already a 2x loss; petroleum/crude is twice again as bad. So stick with water as the coolant initially, then switch to supercoolant once you’ve got some space missions going. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/619 "2019-09-16T09:13:30Z")
[Here’s a cute little automation device](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/771727728509030842/47B455C7DBA07B656FB41A202E11815127E5292C/). I use it to fuel my rockets. The rocket takes exactly 2700 kg of fuel, but I don’t want to just leave the pipes full because they’re near the exhaust, and will likely overheat and explode. This isn’t too big a deal with petroleum but is an issue with liquid oxygen and hydrogen since they’re so cold. The pipes transfer 10 kg/s, so I need a timer for exactly 270 s. The buffer gate is almost what I want–once on, it’ll stay on for the selected time period. Two problems: - It has a max length of 200 s - I want the shortest possible input trigger. I don’t want to depend on flicking a sensor on and off quickly. The first problem can be solved by just putting multiple gates in serial. So here, I have a 200 s gate and a 70 s gate before it. Once one runs out, the other starts counting down. You can stack as many as you want for longer intervals. The second part is trickier. I used an XOR gate, which is on if only one input is on. Both off or both on, and the output is off. The hydro sensor I used for the input drives both signals, but importantly, one of the paths goes through two NOT gates. The NOT gates give just enough of a delay on that input that for a short period, one of the inputs is high and the other low. That’s enough to send the XOR output high for a moment and trigger the buffer gate countdown. So all I do to refuel my rocket is toggle the hydro sensor. It tickles the buffer gate, which runs for 270 s total, driving a valve that puts exactly 2700 kg of propellant in the rocket. Yay for laziness! ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582/620 "2019-09-16T12:22:27Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > [Here’s a cute little automation device](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/771727728509030842/47B455C7DBA07B656FB41A202E11815127E5292C/). I use it to fuel my rockets. > > The rocket takes exactly 2700 kg of fuel, but I don’t want to just leave the pipes full because they’re near the exhaust, and will likely overheat and explode. This isn’t too big a deal with petroleum but is an issue with liquid oxygen and hydrogen since they’re so cold. > > The pipes transfer 10 kg/s, so I need a timer for exactly 270 s. The buffer gate is almost what I want–once on, it’ll stay on for the selected time period. Two problems: > > - It has a max length of 200 s > - I want the shortest possible input trigger. I don’t want to depend on flicking a sensor on and off quickly. > > The first problem can be solved by just putting multiple gates in serial. So here, I have a 200 s gate and a 70 s gate before it. Once one runs out, the other starts counting down. You can stack as many as you want for longer intervals. > > The second part is trickier. I used an XOR gate, which is on if only one input is on. Both off or both on, and the output is off. The hydro sensor I used for the input drives both signals, but importantly, one of the paths goes through two NOT gates. > > The NOT gates give just enough of a delay on that input that for a short period, one of the inputs is high and the other low. That’s enough to send the XOR output high for a moment and trigger the buffer gate countdown. > > So all I do to refuel my rocket is toggle the hydro sensor. It tickles the buffer gate, which runs for 270 s total, driving a valve that puts exactly 2700 kg of propellant in the rocket. Yay for laziness! Very nice! I starting building something like that for a launch door timer. The idea is the astronaught gets in the vehicle. Either I’ve already selected a target or I go select one. At this point, their checklist is complete. This triggers all of the launch mechanisms needed, opening doors, removing gantry, turning on power, etc. It also activates a first timer. The timer is set to the amount of time needed to open the bay doors. When it finishes it sends a signal to the rocket to launch. And starts another timer, that then closes the bay doors. I’ve been chasing too many problems to spare a build team to make something so “optional”. But I _really_ want to build it. I replaced my powered steam fuelling system with a mainly energy free one using regolith to make the steam. I still need a liquid cutoff and the liquid pump, but I need the pump anyway, so really the net difference is the liquid cut off. I _almost_ (but I won’t) feel like starting over. I’ve made so many mistakes in the space biome. Plus, now that I’ve mastered the aquatuner based cooling, I would design everything so differently. ONI has taken the #2 spot on my Steam played list. Only Stellaris remains, but Stellaris is over 800 hours while my previous #2 (The Division) had 400. 400 hours is a lot. Can ONI take it? I’m starting to think it really can. Everytime I learn something new, I want to optimize my base for the new technique. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxygen-not-included-the-kerbal-space-program-of-base-building-what-fallout-shelter-shouldve-been/816582.md?page=32)