# Oxymoron, US + Intelligence!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374 "2017-05-24T21:58:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/21 "2017-05-25T11:03:21Z")
Wow, some real fuck-wittery here. You think that maybe revealing names is a great idea? Or an approximate blast radius and distribution of the bomb fragments is a good idea? Really? Wow, what a couple of fucking dolts If the terrorists had been a little careless, they also know that they need to distance themselves from the recognisable components -by disposing of any extra parts, or receipts - and yes they do get careless and when it comes to trial such evidence helps prove the case. **running-coach AK84** I did not think you could be so stupid, why do you think that the police in your country retain information on cases? Maybe they are just terrible at PR and marketing eh? and when they release information, do you imagine that they do this very selectively? Can you think of any reason why that might be the case? You seem to have all the answers, why not give our counter terrorist police a call, I am sure your assistance will be valuable and welcomed, indeed I imagine every nutjob in the US is going to be just as helpful as yourselves. These terrorists are not operating in single nations, they travel relatively freely. Intelligence is vital in maintaining tracks on them, so the fact that international confidence has been damaged is serious, I wonder how you would feel if something we knew could have prevented a serious terrorist incident in the US, and we were unable to share it because of this security breach. No, sorry, you just cannot be that stupid, can you? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/22 "2017-05-25T14:02:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ETA: to the above poster, US media and government owes no loyalty to the UK and its institutions. If the decide that sharing information and publishing are in their best interests, they will do so. Don’t project your patriotism onto them. I guess you mean me, if so, I’m not sure what whiff of patriotism you got from my post. You seem to be suggesting some wiser long-game ploy at work here within the US intelligence services, one that involves compromising an ongoing investigation and confirming the performance of a device to the benefit of the builder. Forgive me if I don’t see the immediate wisdom of such a disclosure. You seem very sure that the USA holds all the cards in the intelligence game, from an infrastructure point of view it is certainly very strong but not infallible, omnipotent or irreplaceable. You are also correct in thinking that every intelligence organisation makes a calculated decision on what, when and how to share, very true, but that goes for every other country in the world. You also seem to assume that the USA can do what it likes with the intelligence it receives without consequences, that is naive in the extreme. If incidents like this and the Trump gaffe become commonplace then people _will_ think twice before sharing. At the very least the USA risks knowing or (even worse) not knowing, that it has an incomplete picture from its allies. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/23 "2017-05-25T14:26:20Z")
We know that Americans in important positions are susceptible to amateur phishing schemes. Maybe it was Russians hacking with a change your password email that got this vital intel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/24 "2017-05-25T14:33:26Z")
Besides, how do you know if someone’s sharing all their intelligence with you? They can \*say \*they are, but how would you know? That’s why intelligence sharing is based on mutual trust. I’m sure that high-ups in UK and Israeli intelligence services are telling their American counterparts that it’s all water under the bridge, that of course they’ll keep on sharing everything, but remember, these are professional liars. They’ll just turn around and tell their people to hold some stuff back. And the Americans will suspect this, and withhold some stuff in return, and so on, and sooner or later, the system will collapse. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/25 "2017-05-25T14:44:37Z")
I think they misunderstood what counter-intelligence is supposed to mean :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/26 "2017-05-25T15:36:07Z")
This is the final straw. Impeach Tremp Now! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/27 "2017-05-25T15:41:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I guess you mean me, if so, I’m not sure what whiff of patriotism you got from my post. You seem to be suggesting some wiser long-game ploy at work here within the US intelligence services, one that involves compromising an ongoing investigation and confirming the performance of a device to the benefit of the builder. > Forgive me if I don’t see the immediate wisdom of such a disclosure. > > You seem very sure that the USA holds all the cards in the intelligence game, from an infrastructure point of view it is certainly very strong but not infallible, omnipotent or irreplaceable. You are also correct in thinking that every intelligence organisation makes a calculated decision on what, when and how to share, very true, but that goes for every other country in the world. You also seem to assume that the USA can do what it likes with the intelligence it receives without consequences, that is naive in the extreme. If incidents like this and the Trump gaffe become commonplace then people _will_ think twice before sharing. At the very least the USA risks knowing or (even worse) not knowing, that it has an incomplete picture from its allies. Considering that this forum (even the Pit) is supposed to fight ignorance. Yes, in the US-UK relationship most of the cards are held by the Americans and the UK’s options are extremely limited. As far as GCHQ is concerned, [as the Snowden leaks show.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/02/gchq-spy-agency-nsa-snowden) they are dependent on US transfer of technology and in a very large way, US funds. The GCHQ ia is most ways an adjunct of the NSA. > [@](#): > > The money spent by the NSA would seem to reinforce some critics’ fears that GCHQ has become, to some extent, a subsidiary of the American intelligence giant. The papers show the NSA has been making regular payments to GCHQ for a number of years. In 2009, the NSA gave the agency £22.9m. > > The following year, the GCHQ mid-year review acknowledged it was receiving £118m of external funding, “mostly from the Home Office, Ministry of Defence and the NSA”. The NSA contribution amounted to £39.9m, which included £4m to support GCHQ’s work for Nato forces in Afghanistan, and £17.2m for the Mastering the Internet project. > > America also contributed £15.5m to “radically enhance the infrastructure at Bude” in north Cornwall – one of GCHQ’s five sister bases. “Securing external NSA funding for Bude has protected the [core] budget,” the GCHQ document explained. > > This paper acknowledged GCHQ is dependent on the “NSA’s continued investment in key technologies of interest to the UK”. The “2011/12 investment portfolio” was also specific; it said external funding would reach £150.7m, and £34.7m would come from the NSA. > > The cash injections appear to give the US considerable influence over what programmes GCHQ intends to pursue. > > “The portfolio will spend money supplied by the NSA and UK government departments against agreed requirements,” the paper explains. M15 and M16 have depended on US intel for their o[perations. M15 especially (since domestic terrorist is their remit) has depended on the CIA](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/4551441/UK-government-suppressed-evidence-on-Binyam-Mohamed-torture-because-MI6-helped-his-interrogators.html) > [@](#): > > ntelligence sources have revealed that there was a second, legitimate, reason for doing as the US government asked in restricting the material published: MI5 is more dependent than ever on the CIA for help in monitoring the 2,000 terrorist suspects in the UK. The level of dependance that US security services have on their US counterparts is perhaps not appreciated by the average Briton. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/28 "2017-05-25T15:47:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Besides, how do you know if someone’s sharing all their intelligence with you? They can \*say \*they are, but how would you know? That’s why intelligence sharing is based on mutual trust. I’m sure that high-ups in UK and Israeli intelligence services are telling their American counterparts that it’s all water under the bridge, that of course they’ll keep on sharing everything, but remember, these are professional liars. They’ll just turn around and tell their people to hold some stuff back. And the Americans will suspect this, and withhold some stuff in return, and so on, and sooner or later, the system will collapse. The fact is the US has had no qualms about “disciplining” its “Allies” b[y withholding and denying access to intelligence streams](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/24/intelligence-sharing-codebreakers-agreement-ukusa). For instance > [@](#): > > …access to intelligence was sometimes a useful stick for beating allies. In August 1973, Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger lost patience with Edward Heath’s pro-European polices. To signal their displeasure, they told their people to cut Britain out. > > The agency protested that intelligence exchange with GCHQ was governed by the UKUSA agreement and such a “cut-off” was awkward. Nevertheless, many streams of intelligence, especially imagery from satellites and aircraft, dried up and Britain’s Joint Intelligence Committee panicked And not just Britain > [@](#): > > Canada also endured “cut-offs”. After Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait in 1990, Washington asked Ottawa to assist by sending naval ships to the Gulf. The Canadian fleet was out-dated and equipped for anti-submarine warfare. Fearing the threat from aircraft and Exocet missiles, the Canadians protested that their ships would be too vulnerable. > > Washington signalled its intense displeasure by cutting off the intelligence flow and so the “screens went blank”. Ottawa had a change of heart and three days later communications were restored. In honour of this memorable episode in allied relations, Ottawa’s defence chiefs christened their Gulf naval deployment “Operation Friction” Its not totally one way. However, when push comes to shove it is Washington which gets its way. And the US Allies have learned that, its just the way it is. The benefits to them…access to US information and systems are too great. So even if they get upset at the US leaking, its not going to lead to them withdrawing support for long. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/29 "2017-05-25T16:42:49Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > I think they misunderstood what counter-intelligence is supposed to mean :smack: As in, “The Trump administration runs counter to intelligence”? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/30 "2017-05-25T17:05:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > M15 and M16 have depended on US intel for their \ Who are M “Fifteen” and M “Sixteen”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/31 "2017-05-25T17:50:07Z")
I’m starting to question AK84’s expertise on matters of international intelligence agencies and how they work. Unless he’s talking about the agencies working for Kim Jong the 2nd. ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/32 "2017-05-25T18:43:12Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > As in, “The Trump administration runs counter to intelligence”? As in, ‘‘counter-clockwise’’ or ‘‘counter-weight’’, and it seems ‘‘over the counter’’ ( and with some ‘‘under the counter’’… ) BTW is ‘‘counter-intelligent’’ a word ? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/33 "2017-05-25T19:46:47Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > BBC reporting the the UK has stopped sharing intel with the US Yeah, but see who you come crawling back to the next time Germany decides to conquer the whole of Europe again! ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/34 "2017-05-25T19:49:43Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Yeah, but see who you come crawling back to the next time Germany decides to conquer the whole of Europe again! This is possibly the stupidest sentence in the history of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/35 "2017-05-25T19:51:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The level of dependance that US security services have on their US counterparts is perhaps not appreciated by the average Briton. I’m sorry, I misspoke in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/36 "2017-05-25T19:52:41Z")
> [@SaneBill](#): > > BTW is ‘‘counter-intelligent’’ a word ? You’re doing a hell of a job supporting the case. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/37 "2017-05-25T20:08:32Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The level of dependance that US security services have on their US counterparts is perhaps not appreciated by the average Briton. There is absolutely no doubt that we rely heavily on the USA for intelligence, I think you underestimate the awareness of the average UK citizen. That doesn’t change the fact that the UK performs tasks and provides services that the USA wants and need. Your own cites show the level of funding provided and the strong strategic connections created. That isn’t done on a whim and nor is it like any other commercial contract to be torn up and moved elsewhere. There have been occasions in the past where both sides have withdrawn co-operation and both sides ended up losing out. For either side to wilfully and needlessly risk that again would be damaging for both. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/38 "2017-05-25T20:13:34Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is possibly the stupidest sentence in the history of the internet. 😃 > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I’m sorry, I misspoke in my previous post. Aww! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/39 "2017-05-25T20:51:52Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You’re doing a hell of a job supporting the case. Funny thing is that I honestly have no idea are you complimenting the post or trying to insult me 😉 Well, at least you didn’t say > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is possibly the stupidest sentence in the history of the internet. Then again English is not my first language… ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374/40 "2017-05-25T22:42:46Z")
It’s human to be defensive, but it’s not particularly admirable. As an American I feel that Americans who are making light of this or thumping their chests over how powerful the USA is (and so the UK had better just suck it up, etc.) are behaving with remarkable idiocy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oxymoron-us-intelligence/787374.md?page=3)