# Oy, this crunchy mothering board is hurting my brain **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 16, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143 "2011-05-16T21:59:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/81 "2011-05-18T08:37:06Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I got a warning on the Mothering board in a very short time by posting a list of what the childhood diseases that they don’t want to vaccinate for are actually like. Useful information that actually helps children is not welcome there. You are a brave woman. I got banned from there for continuing to argue with them on the vax stuff. _Mothering Magazine_ went out of business recently so the board is the only remnant left. Ha. Worst fucking parenting board on the net. And I’m so darned crunchy I co-slept and nursed my eldest for two years. Unfortunately I can’t get my newborn to latch most of the time. I expect to hear a rant about my bad mommy skills from the breastfeeding nutters as I pump and supplement with formula. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/82 "2011-05-18T13:43:55Z")
I got banned from a board for trying to politely explain why I disagreed that doctors should be legally required to fully resuscitate all neonates including those with conditions incompatible with life or delivered at pre-viable gestations and even in situations where the parents didn’t agree to it. This was after being warned because: I’d posted about my experiences in India witnessing (breastfed) kids suffer, and in some cases die, from preventable diseases like measles and whooping cough. Mentioning that a risk of VBAC is uterine rupture- which might be sudden and catastrophic. Apparently the board consensus was that a rupture would be minor and easily detectable in the early stages with “plenty of time for a c-section” should it occur. Apparently I was pushing “the medical agenda” in a way that made other members uncomfortable. The fact that everything I said was true…less important. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/83 "2011-05-18T14:57:53Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You are a brave woman. > > I got banned from there for continuing to argue with them on the vax stuff. _Mothering Magazine_ went out of business recently so the board is the only remnant left. > > Ha. > > Worst fucking parenting board on the net. And I’m so darned crunchy I co-slept and nursed my eldest for two years. Unfortunately I can’t get my newborn to latch most of the time. I expect to hear a rant about my bad mommy skills from the breastfeeding nutters as I pump and supplement with formula. Mine was telling a woman to “just bottlefeed already.” Her baby was six weeks old and wouldn’t latch. So she was pumping and then feeding the breastmilk with an EYEDROPPER so there wouldn’t be any nipple confusion! She hadn’t slept much in six weeks, and had a toddler at home. The baby wasn’t gaining any weight and the “evil bad medical establishment doctor” was threatening to put the baby in the hospital - and report her to child services if necessary. But the yahoos on the board thought that putting breastmilk in a bottle would mean nipple confusion and the baby would never latch. I wasn’t even advocating formula (unless she needed to supplement) just putting the breastmilk in a bottle. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/84 "2011-05-18T15:20:23Z")
> [@Wallet](#): > > Wow - I’m still a member of an e-mail loop from Mom’s Online - we all had our babies in Sept '97. > They’ve gotten me through so many tough times, from breastfeeding to 8th grade angst. > > Nice to meet a fellow loopie! > Wallet Hey, hi! My older son was born in July 1997. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/85 "2011-05-18T15:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently I was pushing “the medical agenda” in a way that made other members uncomfortable. The fact that everything I said was true…less important. And what did I TELL you about facts? They are nasty, uncomfortable, prickly things! They might make us THINK! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/86 "2011-05-18T17:56:47Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > You are a brave woman. \ What’s the worst they could do - hunt me down, kill me and my family, burn our house to the ground? > [@](#): > > Worst fucking parenting board on the net. And I’m so darned crunchy I co-slept and nursed my eldest for two years. Unfortunately I can’t get my newborn to latch most of the time. I expect to hear a rant about my bad mommy skills from the breastfeeding nutters as I pump and supplement with formula. My friend supplemented with formula from early on because her baby was still hungry. I’m no parent, but this seems like a no-brainer to me - feed a hungry baby! ---
**Author:** ![surrounded\_by\_literalists](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@surrounded\_by\_literalists](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/surrounded_by_literalists)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/87 "2011-05-18T20:19:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Mine was telling a woman to “just bottlefeed already.” Her baby was six weeks old and wouldn’t latch. So she was pumping and then feeding the breastmilk with an EYEDROPPER so there wouldn’t be any nipple confusion! She hadn’t slept much in six weeks, and had a toddler at home. The baby wasn’t gaining any weight and the “evil bad medical establishment doctor” was threatening to put the baby in the hospital - and report her to child services if necessary. > > But the yahoos on the board thought that putting breastmilk in a bottle would mean nipple confusion and the baby would never latch. I wasn’t even advocating formula (unless she needed to supplement) just putting the breastmilk in a bottle. Its amazing how unconfused about nipples hungry babies can be. Besides, I would rather have a confused baby than a starving baby. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/88 "2011-05-18T22:39:10Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Unpastuerized milk is a perfect medium for growing bacteria and lots of it, not killing it. > > There is no mechanism for passing functional components of moms immune system via milk through babys digestive tract into the bloodstream to help fight infection. If anything, babys immune system builds immune response by exposure to pathogens on/in moms body. I believe most of what you say, and in general, re unpasturized milk, I unreservedly agree that it is a perfect medium. I don’t believe that direct from source (squirted directly from breast to eye, for example) has enough exposure to cause a problem _worse_ than pinkeye in the huge majority of cases, though I have _not_ done a study. I also believe wholeheartedly in allowing raw milk to be sold. It is illegal almost anywhere, perhaps everywhere, in the US- but I drank it for many many many years, either direct from goat or cow squirted to mouth or bowl, or within hours or days in initially sterile jars. I don’t care enough about it to purchase it myself from the black-market raw milk farmers, but not because I wouldn’t like it… Just because it is a pain to drive to the country. > [@Sam\_I\_Am](#): > > There are studies that have quantified the topical antibiotic properties of breastmilk, such as this one that showed 28% inhibition of coliform bacteria [In vitro activity of human milk against the causative organisms of ophthalmia neonatorum in Benin City, Nigeria - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009556) Not as good as antibiotics, sure, but can provide some good. It is also proven to be anti-inflammatory. > > Re: no mechanism of immune components through the digestive tract to the blood, many of the immune components are effective within the digestive system. And there are mechanisms for breast milk immune components to trigger the infants immune system via the mucosal membranes. I have heard this from my mother. I believe most of it, but I don’t have anything other than anecdotal or confirmation bias to back it up. I will have to follow the jump. Thanks! > [@irishgirl](#): > > I got banned from a board for trying to politely explain why I disagreed that doctors should be legally required to fully resuscitate all neonates including those with conditions incompatible with life or delivered at pre-viable gestations > and even in situations where the parents didn’t agree to it. > This was after being warned because: > > I’d posted about my experiences in India witnessing (breastfed) kids suffer, and in some cases die, from preventable diseases like measles and whooping cough. > > Mentioning that a risk of VBAC is uterine rupture- which might be sudden and catastrophic. Apparently the board consensus was that a rupture would be minor and easily detectable in the early stages with “plenty of time for a c-section” should it occur. > Apparently I was pushing “the medical agenda” in a way that made other members uncomfortable. The fact that everything I said was true…less important. _ **including those with conditions incompatible with life** _ and _ **Apparently the board consensus was that a rupture would be minor and easily detectable in the early stages with “plenty of time for a c-section” should it occur.** _ are both a simple WTF?!?!? I am all for VBAC if your OB-GYN is aware of the desire and is working with a midwife on strengthening techniques… but the number of midwives and OB-GYNs whom I know that actually support it is very very low of the few whom I know. Even in the hospital, uterine rupture can be a scary thing. Not quite as scary as cutting the femoral and bleeding out on the table, but very very scary, still. Oh- and regarding my own desire at 9 months to self wean- as I was discussing that fact with my fiance, I realized that my mom quit smoking when I was 9 months old… (this was before it was ‘known’ that smoking was bad for those in utero) I wonder how much of the nicotine missing vs taste change was a factor in my infant mind/body? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/89 "2011-05-19T00:08:47Z")
Well, here’s an obstetrician that supports VBAC (with caveats, of course): [http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/viewer/Pages/index.aspx?newsid=2835](http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/viewer/Pages/index.aspx?newsid=2835) I happen to be familiar with this doctor and that study because he was my obstetrician for my second and third pregnancies, both of which in fact were VBACs. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/90 "2011-05-19T01:00:03Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Well, here’s an obstetrician that supports VBAC (with caveats, of course): > [http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/viewer/Pages/index.aspx?newsid=2835](http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/viewer/Pages/index.aspx?newsid=2835) > > I happen to be familiar with this doctor and that study because he was my obstetrician for my second and third pregnancies, both of which in fact were VBACs. I haven’t seen anyone say that VBACs are evil and should never happen. All I’ve seen is a statement of the plain fact that uterine rupture is a risk. Which it is. It’s a pretty small risk, but it does exist, and so IME big-city women with access to hospitals that can deal with such things have VBACs more often than those of us in smaller towns that can’t deal with dire emergencies if they happen at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/91 "2011-05-19T01:06:03Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > I haven’t seen anyone say that VBACs are evil and should never happen. All I’ve seen is a statement of the plain fact that uterine rupture is a risk. Which it is. It’s a pretty small risk, but it does exist, and so IME big-city women with access to hospitals that can deal with such things have VBACs more often than those of us in smaller towns that can’t deal with dire emergencies if they happen at the wrong time. What gets me is that the caveats are usually ignored by the batshit insane crowd. VBAC - one that your doctor has evaluated and said is an appropriate risk level - go for it. VBAC because some yahoo on an internet message board told you that there isn’t any danger and your doctor is just trying to keep his malpractice insurance down - irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/92 "2011-05-19T01:07:54Z")
I haven’t seen anyone say that VBACs are evil and should never happen either. **gurujulp** said that he (she?) knew very few OBs that supported it. I cited one who does, and the major peer-reviewed study he helped run. You framed your post as a disagreement with mine, and I’m not sure why, as nothing I said ran counter to anything you said. Edit: In response to **dangermom**. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/93 "2011-05-19T01:22:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > May I steal that? Considering I stole it from someone, feel free! ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/94 "2011-05-19T03:19:24Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > By the way, every time I see the thread title, I think the OP is trying to work on a motherboard, and is engaging in some creative swearing. I have passed over this thread many times because I read it as motherboard. The only way to know if it is crunchy is to eat it, right? Weird mental images going on in my head… ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/95 "2011-05-19T03:27:29Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > I haven’t seen anyone say that VBACs are evil and should never happen. All I’ve seen is a statement of the plain fact that uterine rupture is a risk. Which it is. It’s a pretty small risk, but it does exist, and so IME big-city women with access to hospitals that can deal with such things have VBACs more often than those of us in smaller towns that can’t deal with dire emergencies if they happen at the wrong time. VBAC was quite controversial back in the day, with most or all doctors arguing that it was simply too, too dangerous to ever contemplate. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/96 "2011-05-19T03:32:44Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Mine was telling a woman to “just bottlefeed already.” Her baby was six weeks old and wouldn’t latch. So she was pumping and then feeding the breastmilk with an EYEDROPPER so there wouldn’t be any nipple confusion! She hadn’t slept much in six weeks, and had a toddler at home. The baby wasn’t gaining any weight and the “evil bad medical establishment doctor” was threatening to put the baby in the hospital - and report her to child services if necessary. > > But the yahoos on the board thought that putting breastmilk in a bottle would mean nipple confusion and the baby would never latch. I wasn’t even advocating formula (unless she needed to supplement) just putting the breastmilk in a bottle. I never understood this – what’s wrong with breastmilk in a bottle? It’s still breastmilk. Even if the baby never latches, he/she is still getting the nutrients he/she needs. If it’s about “bonding”, Mom’s still holding the baby, and in this case, Dad can participate as well. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/97 "2011-05-19T04:13:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I never understood this – what’s wrong with breastmilk in a bottle? It’s still breastmilk. Most moms won’t pump for months and months, though. It’s the Gateway fear - that she’ll get sick of pumping, and since the baby will take a bottle already, formula is a small step away. Also, breastmilk changes to suit your baby’s needs if he’s nursing. If he’s going through a growth spurt, it changes to have more fat and protein. If he’s just thirsty, it changes to be more watery. (The details are too off topic for this thread, but it has to do with foremilk and hindmilk and whether the baby drains the breast and how quickly.) While I noticed a few changes to my milk in the 14 months that I pumped, it wasn’t as dramatic a change as nursing moms who pump occasionally see. My milk stayed thick and creamy with almost no watery hindmilk for the whole time. It stayed preemie milk, even when my preemie was over a year old and didn’t need preemie milk any more. Now, before I get jumped on, I will add that yes, of course you feed a hungry baby. Because mine was a micropreemie, she never learned a good latch, and lost weight for the only month we (thought she was) breastfed. So I supplemented with formula. I went back to pumping only, and took herbs and ordered illicit (but technically legal) drugs from New Zealand and did everything possible to increase my milk supply. I got to about half her needs with everything I did, and so she drank bottles of half-and-half…half my milk and half formula. I’m NOT a fan of formula. I think it should be treated like a prescription medication, just like insulin and parenteral nutrition - available, but only when a doctor determines that the risks outweigh the benefits. But I’m even more not a fan of starving babies to make a point. If the kid needs formula, the kid needs formula, just like a diabetic needs insulin. Feed the frickin’ baby! ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/98 "2011-05-19T06:49:54Z")
Preach it, sister! I never knew we were illicit drug suppliers down here in NZ! I’m quite proud. I kept breastfeeding for a year, because I believe it’s the best, but from almost five months on I was supplementing with both formula and solids (“Gasp! _Really?_”) including a **peanut butter sandwich** (Double gasp, hand to the heart, reel back in horror) - I thought I’d caused a coronary. Mine was the opposite of a micropremie, late and latched like a champion within half an hour of delivery. We still had the same issues with weight. She went from an excellent rate of weight gain to barely holding steady in the space of two weeks. I bought formula on the way home from the Nursing Clinic, on the practitioner’s advice. I was at an immunology seminar last week and apparently there’s been a paradigm shift in breastfeeding advice over the last few years. During my pregnancy in the 90’s we were told to avoid all allergens (nuts, eggs, seafoods etc) while breastfeeding but now that’s reversed as the current thinking is that exposure through breastmilk builds tolerances. Can anyone confirm this? ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/99 "2011-05-19T07:02:56Z")
I’m totally supportive of VBAC, if that is what the woman wants. It’s basically the default option in the UK and Ireland unless someone has a strong preference or medical indication for a repeat caesarian. I’m just advocating that anyone who goes into it does so with their eyes open to the risks and the possibility that it may still end up as an operative delivery. This particular board was full of people who believed that VBACs almost never ended up as repeat c-section (because you body had been through a pregnancy and L&D before, it would “know what to do right” the next time, or something). They also felt that uterine rupture was a minor inconvenience that obstetricians blew up into a sort of bogeyman to put people off VBAC for their own nefarious reasons. :smack: FWIW, should I get pregnant again, I won’t be aiming for VBAC- the medical indications for my c-section not being pregnancy specific in my case, but that’s my informed choice based on my own circumstances, not a general belief about what others should do. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143/100 "2011-05-19T12:26:45Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > I was at an immunology seminar last week and apparently there’s been a paradigm shift in breastfeeding advice over the last few years. During my pregnancy in the 90’s we were told to avoid all allergens (nuts, eggs, seafoods etc) while breastfeeding but now that’s reversed as the current thinking is that exposure through breastmilk builds tolerances. > > Can anyone confirm this? Based on my understanding of the theory, life experience and the increased incidence of allergies in younger folks, I would say that [there’s some evidence](http://www.allergyclinic.co.nz/guides/10.html) that exposure to allergens at an early age can provide the body with some desensitization to the allergens and reduce the risk of a fatal or severe allergic reaction in the future. When my husband and I were youngsters in the 1980s, this was something that many allergists actually practiced via allergy shots and exposure to allergens in small amounts. As you mentioned, in the 1990s there was a shift to avoidance of all allergens and an increase in severe allergies among children born during that time-- it may be coincidental or correlate to the behaviors recommended by pediatricians at the time, but [the medical community has not formed a consensus on it at this point](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12562461). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oy-this-crunchy-mothering-board-is-hurting-my-brain/582143.md?page=6)