# P&T and Creationists **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303 "2003-03-14T11:58:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/1 "2003-03-14T11:58:18Z")
Alright, AFAIK Penn and Teller are going to be taking on “Creationists” tonight-I’m hoping it’s going to be a good one. I’ve actually been looking forward to this _particular_ episode, so I can’t wait. What are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/2 "2003-03-14T13:42:31Z")
As I’ve said in GD, I think Creationists make us other belivers in God look silly to those that haven’t been told there’s a difference. (Wil stop now, since this is Cafe) Penn & Teller have really run over some very silly things. So, I expect this show to be a riot! Their style is the type that either you love them, or you can’t see why they have any fans. I like them. That’s tonight, you say? Dad-gum-diddle-ly-yum! I guess I’ll try to record t. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/3 "2003-03-14T13:54:14Z")
Tonight at 11pm. I agree, creationists give religious folk a bad name. I don’t like the fact that if I say I’m a Christian I get occasional, “So you believe the earth is a square, eh” comments. My only _tiny_ gripe with the show is it’s too short and they don’t spend enough time on a subject…I suppose that’s how it’s got to be though. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/4 "2003-03-14T21:05:13Z")
Point of clarification, here: Are we talking creationists in general, or just Biblical literalist creationists? There’s a **big** difference. ---
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/5 "2003-03-14T21:49:48Z")
Which one? I really don’t know, not baiting or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/6 "2003-03-14T22:44:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Point of clarification, here: Are we talking creationists in general, or just Biblical literalist creationists? There’s a **big** difference. \*\* This was my exact thought. It’s rather arrogant(and foolish) to assume that anyone who does not want Evolution[ism] to be taught in schools wants the Bible to replace it. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/7 "2003-03-14T22:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Point of clarification, here: Are we talking creationists in general, or just Biblical literalist creationists? There’s a big difference. No, there’s not. Creationism is a load of hooey whether you believe the world was created by Yahweh in 6 days, hewn from the body of a giant, or churned from a bowl of milk. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/8 "2003-03-14T23:11:49Z")
It is _not_ a load of hooey to believe in a God actually creating the universe we inhabit. But, go to GD if you want to “discuss” it. There are several threads on this at any given time over there. I am pretty sure Penn and Teller are taking on the Six Day Creationists. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/9 "2003-03-14T23:15:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mahaloth \* > \*\*It’s rather arrogant(and foolish) to assume that anyone who does not want Evolution[ism] to be taught in schools wants the Bible to replace it. \*\* I’m curious, are there any other reasons not to want established scientific theories like evolution taught in schools? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/10 "2003-03-14T23:16:43Z")
I’ve caught every episode so far, and loved em all. The Feng Shui/Bottled Water one was a hoot. “Water steward.” Heheheheh. The only one I’ve been dissapointed in was the Second Hand Smoke episode – I thought they could have done a bit more investigating and a bit less ranting in that one. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/11 "2003-03-14T23:19:37Z")
Haven’t heard of this- do Penn and Teller have their own show? What channel? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/12 "2003-03-14T23:30:26Z")
> [@](#): > > It is not a load of hooey to believe in a God actually creating the universe we inhabit. But, go to GD if you want to “discuss” it. There are several threads on this at any given time over there. If it pleases you to believe that God created the universe, go for it. But the term “creationism” is used to mean people who believe in the literal truth of Genesis and who deny that humans and apes share a common ancestry. There’s a reason why the P&T show is called “Bullshit.” Note to **Cat Fight** : Showtime, 11 Eastern, 10 Central. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/13 "2003-03-15T00:17:55Z")
Just to be sure, I usually separate Creationism (the literalists) from other believers by capitalizing the “C.” Hey, it’s how they refer to themsleves, so why not. FTR, I consider there to be a great deal of difference between someone who believes in a God and some form of creation and the specific beliefes of Biblical Literalist Creationism. Yes, I am _really_ looking forward to seeing this episode. **Meatros** , should we just come back here after seeing it? I mean, since you already got it going and all… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/14 "2003-03-15T00:46:25Z")
Ditto, looking forward to it. The feng shui thing was hilarious. For anyone who missed it, they had three different practitioners rearrange the same space, and came up with three totally different results. “Scientific” management of space my ass. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/15 "2003-03-15T04:58:13Z")
Post-air bumpification. Another excellent episode. I liked Teller turning water into wine. ---
**Author:** ![double-o-seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@double-o-seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/double-o-seven)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/16 "2003-03-15T13:49:08Z")
I don’t get Showtime, it’s against my religion. (j/k) The thing about creationists got my attention though. I don’t know what the exact percentage is, but a majority of Americans believe in some form of supernatural creation versus random evolution. Of that, it’s the ones who try to force science to conform to their preconceived notions of literal Biblical creation that give the other half a bad name. Of course the atheists, I mean scientists, don’t have any preconceived notions do they? Naw. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/17 "2003-03-15T15:26:31Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Originally posted by Mahaloth It’s rather arrogant(and foolish) to assume that anyone who does not want Evolution[ism] to be taught in schools wants the Bible to replace it. > > I’m curious, are there any other reasons not to want established scientific theories like evolution taught in schools? Sorry, I screwed up my point. What I meant was that I don’t want Evolution[ism] taught exclusively, as if it is the only way to think in our State and Federaly funded public schools. I’m against mind control. If you ask most high school students why they believe in evolution(I have), they usually say because they have been taught it for so long. Wouldn’t that bother you if they said they believed in Creation because they have been taught it their whole lives? I always figured the “solution”(I know it would never happen) would be as follows: Spend 6 weeks on species origination in schools. Spend 3 weeks on the current theory of Evolution and the other 3 weeks going over other theories, including other theories of evolution, and so forth. It’s not a firm idea, but a basis for one. There is plenty of room for work. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/18 "2003-03-15T15:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mahaloth \* > Spend 6 weeks on species origination in schools. Spend 3 weeks on the current theory of Evolution and the other 3 weeks going over other theories, including other theories of evolution, and so forth. Sure, y’bet. And in physics class, let’s spend 3 weeks studying gravity as science currently understands it under Newtonian and Einsteinian laws, and 3 weeks as Ptolemy and Aristotle understood it. Things just naturally fall “down”, the planets are in fixed spheres, they travel in irregular epicycles on circles, and they might even be gods, not bodies of gas, rock & ice. That’s worth discussing, isn’t it? And in chemistry class, let’s spend 3 weeks studying the atomic charts, and 3 more weeks investigating phlogiston and the 4 elements known to ancients: water, fire, air and earth. Can’t overlook those theories, can we? And which other “evolution” theories would you want to teach? The one where the earth is held up by four elephants standing on the backs of four turtles? The one that says the sun is pulled across the sky every day by a chariot and horses? Or the one with the talking snakes? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/19 "2003-03-15T16:40:35Z")
Oh Drat! I love Penn & Teller. Anyway to see these shows if you don’t have _Showtime_? ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303/20 "2003-03-15T17:13:27Z")
I think **Musicat** summed up the problems with that idea quite nicely **Mahaloth**. “Evolutionism” isn’t some unchanging dogma, it’s the actual science and there should be no problem teaching kids evolution as a science. ie. It is not equivalent to teaching Creationism in that regard, it isn’t “Mind Control.” The depth that a class will be able to go into regarding the different evolutionary theories should be related to time available and their actual relevance. More important than any specific theory however should be an understanding of the **scientific method as it applies to any theory**. That is not only the most important thing to be teaching in _any_ science class but it is also the very thing to negate any concerns over “mind control” you might have. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/p-t-and-creationists/161303.md?page=2)